<p>“As for the trade schools…well I am going on personal experience. I have a nephew who floundered in HS. However, he loved working on cars, bikes, etc. There was nothing in the HS program which supported or encouraged these interests. This young man had absolutely no desire to continue formal schooling. He did attend a technical training school (expense and he has loans) and is now very happily and quite gainfully employed.”</p>
<p>Yeah for nephew of dietz199!</p>
<p>Some claim that those who insist everyone should go to a four-year college are “snobs.”</p>
<p>Not sure I would go that far, but maybe they are naive. ;)</p>
I keep saying the $8k because that’s the context of this particular thread where the idea is to make each student (except for the exceptions which I question) pay a ‘minimum’ of $2K/yr which would mean that if they were already paying that or more for tuition then this proposal wouldn’t affect them.</p>
<p>The context of the thread is the ability of people to go to college, and how loading additional debt on them (even if they can get additional loans) makes it increasingly unaffordable or inaccessible. </p>
<p>$10k for folks already struggling and faced with huge debts is A LOT of money.</p>
<p>I may not have made it clear that I don’t see the European/Asian systems as a utopia…but a system almost on the polar opposite extreme with some of its own serious problems…namely extreme rigidity, lack of second chances for those who weren’t perfect in K-8 or K-12, no allowances for late bloomers, unhealthy cutthroat competition/tendency towards rank elitism among many university students/parents, etc. </p>
<p>One good example of the extreme rigidity and lack of second chances is an older Japanese friend who had to continue his middle/HS/undergrad education in the US because he was barred from Japanese schools after 7th grade despite excellent grades for being involved in one schoolyard fight that would be extremely tame by US standards…and disowned by his family as a result. If it wasn’t for a chance encounter with a wealthy Japanese benefactor who felt he deserved a second chance…he’d still be working odd jobs and factory jobs requiring little/no training while living a hand to mouth existence. When I met him…he was finishing up his undergrad as a 26 year old senior with flying colors and had a great future ahead of him. </p>
<p>While he was an extreme case…knew several other European and Asian students who came to the US to attend middle/high school and undergrad because one mistake during K-8…academic or otherwise…was enough to preclude them from continuing not only on the college track…but sometimes many vocational training/apprenticeships as well. </p>
<p>On the other hand…one big issue in the US is the expense and the inability of too many citizens that they benefit from providing full-ride scholarships/FA to poor/working-class/lower-middle class students with academic promise…even if they themselves aren’t direct beneficiaries as students themselves or their parents. Do we want to return to the dawn of the 20th century when a college education…especially a private one was mostly a preserve for the well-connected and the wealthy?</p>
<p>As a taxpayer, and as a matter of public policy, I don’t much care who attends a private college. The instate publics, on the other hand, should be a ‘preserve’ for all.</p>
<p>I’d go even further: eliminate all federal aid packages to private and for-profit colleges and redirect that aid to publics only. If HYPSM believes that having an economically-diverse student body is good for HYPSM, then they can pay for such students to attend. (Obviously, they can afford it.)</p>
<p>(And yes, I realize that most colleges are not as well-endowed as the Ancient Eight. But too bad for the privates if they lose a few low income students.)</p>
<p>I agree with you, except, then, I do believe all trade-related skills taught by for-profits will also need to be offered either at vocational community colleges or at the community colleges themselves. I don’t believe we should penalize students who prefer to go into the trades.</p>
<p>It’s my understanding that this $2K is meant to be a minimum for tuition only, meaning they may have maxed out their loans on room, board, fees or books/supplies. So it may be an out of pocket expense for many.</p>
<p>I could completely get behind eliminating Pell Grants for students at colleges with endowments of more than $700,000 per full-time student. Even at a 4% return – and their average returns have been better than that historically – that amounts to $28,000 per student per year in endowment returns. </p>
<p>I think that at least one thing driving some of the proposals we’re seeing is that some public colleges behave in very, very bad ways. Our local flagship just got egg all over its face when it was revealed that last year’s in-state tuition increase of 9.3% went to fund a $49K salary bump for the chancellor and a bunch more for other top administrators while other staff and faculty salaries have stagnated, followed up this week by the news that the very same university has allowed a bunch of senior administrators to retire, and then brought them back on the payroll with just-under-half-time salaries that has let one of them pull down more than $500K a year between the state pension and the half-time salary. Needless to say, this is not going over very well, and that is true for members of both political parties. </p>
<p>D’s public university also just invested in a fabulous, state-of-the art student wellness center that looks like it belongs in a very upscale resort. Very upscale. It is hard to accept the, “We are desperately underfunded and thus need to raise tuition again” mantra when you see things like this – and turn around and look at your twelve-year-old car.</p>
<p>yes, it’s true. there is a frustrating amount of corruption and mismanagement in universities, particularly as they have become big business. Corruption does tend to follow the money.</p>
<p>A recent book, Higher Education?, was critical of misspent money at universities. Interestingly - one of the few schools the book praised was AZ State - the very school that prompted local legislators to pen this proposal following Michael Crowes comment.</p>
<p>The real math is a long way from adding up to an 8K debt - the five year graduation rate in AZ schools is around 56% and none of those full, or near full tuition merit scholarships is extended beyond 8 semesters.</p>
<p>At the same time that the legislature is trying to make education less affordable to many students, the CEO of a leading local employer (Intell) made public statements to the effect that if he were choosing a location for his company today, given the current educational/political/economic climate - he would never choose AZ. That sort of reaction doesn’t bode well for a state that says it is trying to attract high quality employers.</p>
<p>I think that the political climate in AZ is particularly combative, being as it has been a frontrunner in the new wave of hard hitting anti-immigrant laws. What company needs to deal with that? Unfortunately, the educational climate is very much affected by the economic times. Maybe once the economy perks up, the educational climate will get better.</p>
<p>The Vice President of ASU testified that the figure the president gave to the legislature - 50% of undergraduates pay no tuition - was an anomoly caused by a temporary increase in federal funds. She said the current figure is 25%. There is a lot of opposition to the bill, so the legislator who sponsered it just withdrew it.</p>
<p>By the way, Intel is currently building their 8th plant in AZ, so the former CEO is all wet.</p>
<p>While it makes many on this board feel warm and fuzzy about tax-payer paid support for college education for poor kids, I don’t think FA currently works as designed. </p>
<p>I’ll try to be brief. First, US accruing masses of debt while supporting programs like Pell grant. Second, there is an argument to be made that the reason the tuition is high is because of the Pell grant.</p>
<p>Quite honestly, I do think that we as a society should try help those who want to attend college. I will happily support non-dischargeable no interest loans for those who want to pursue this dream. I will even support income base-repayment plan regardless of the loan amount (more or less). This way everyone who wants to go to college can go. The caveat is they will have skin in the game and will make more responsible choices, meanwhile those of us who are footing the tax bill (covering the interest on the money loaned to student) will not feel resentful. </p>
<p>I also don’t believe that a student requiring “remedial” level courses should be attending college. The purpose of a 4-year college is to provide higher education, not to prepare for a 4-year college. Those students requiring remedial level courses should start somewhere else (CC) to prepare for a 4 year college. </p>
<p>And mimi, you are absolutely incorrect about transfer of tuition benefit between husband and wife, one of which was/is in military. The benefit can be used by either one of them, does not matter who served. How do I know? My BIL is doing his second tour in Iraq (I mean Kuwait) and when he returns, his wife will use GI bill to complete his education. I also talked to some my SIL “military” friends, and they confirmed that it is the rule.</p>
<p>There are grown people who can’t find jobs to save their lives, but college kids are magically going to be able to get them. Bootstraps, bootstraps, rah rah rah!</p>