Assets but no income

Paying for College
101

She sure isn’t a shoo (thanks for not using shoe) in with 1200, nor would she be at 1300. Or really any number given that it has holistic admissions. I get a little comfort from seeing that no grad of ours with a 4.0 has ever been rejected, almost all with higher scores than hers but a few with lower. A great recommendation from her principal and some interesting resume items should keep her in the running.

They sit on Saturday, then we will regroup, plan some day trips, and they can make their test prep decisions. It’s a shame that we won’t get results until summer is more than half over.

102

When comparing to past students on naviance, be sure to adjust the SAT scores. A 1200 on the new SAT is much lower than a 1200 on the old one. It’s about an 1120 on the old SAT…and it’s about an ACT 25. I imagine that might be low for UNC.

Re: the no income. Wouldn’t you have income from your stock investments?

103

Thanks for the reminder.

Yes, we have income from investments but business loses get AGI to zero. Almost certainly this year too.

104

Holistic might cover the athletes, but as the ACT 25% is 28, I question that lower stats won’t make it to the holistic pile.
From their own blurb page.

“…include award-winning researchers, artists, dancers, writers, community activists, and champion athletes. But they’re not distinguished just by their academic credentials. These students also demonstrated extraordinary creativity, perseverance, compassion, and humility.”

Your kid probably knows CH is a reach. Maybe that is why she has put up the negative view. Probably not a bad approach.

105

<<>>
Didn’t consider that but I’m sure you’re right. The Tar Heel hoops guys might not all have 4.0/1400s, ya think?

The negative view isn’t about fear of failure, it’s about wanting to get away from the most boring town in the most boring state in the world. If Fordham or Barnard were in Charlotte she wouldn’t do a campus tour, even if she was guaranteed a full ride.

I’m going to suggest she check out UNC-Asheville. Small LAC might be good for her, it has a co-op London program with CH, and she can potentially transfer if she has the GPA. There’s more to do in Asheville than in Boone.

106

According to the [College Board](https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/highered/losses.pdf), colleges add business losses back in. I’m not sure I’d count on the AGI being $0.

107

On FAFSA, if the income is low enough to qualify for auto zero or simplified assets, it’s not adjusted. Even 401k deductions, etc., are not added back as long as you can stay in auto $0/simplified.

I don’t get why everyone is fine with ‘qualifying’ for Pell grants but not okay with qualifying for a need based program like SNAP or TNIF. Even health insurance is now an income qualifying program. In 30 states you can ‘qualify’ for medicaid if your income is low enough. It you don’t take medicaid, you don’t get any other tax credits and would be full pay at $1000+ per month. How is that different than qualifying for SNAP? It’s all from the same federal budget and qualifying for Pell is just using another federal program to do the paperwork.

108

This conversation is all over the place. If I were having this conversation with a friend IRL, I would focus on 2 main aspects: admissions and costs.

Admissions–I recommend getting acquainted with common data sets. When looking at the data, pay attention to the 25th and 75th percentile scores. If your students’ scores are near the 25th %, the odds of admission are low. If above the 75th%, odds are high.

Here are your IS referenced schools:

https://oirp.ncsu.edu/facts-figures/external-reports/common-data-set/

http://oira.unc.edu/facts-and-figures/data-summaries-and-publications/common-data-set/

https://irap.appstate.edu/institutional-research

Based on their real scores as of now, the conversation taking place is extremely hypothetical. App is a real option. I am not sure about UNC or NCSU. They really need to understand how the fit the admitted profiles.

The other conversation, $$, I am at a loss. Fordham is incredibly expensive. My dd was accepted with a full-tuition scholarship and even with full-tuition covered, our estimation of what it would cost for room, board, books,and travel to and from was at minimum $18,000 (that is more than full cost of attendance at App https://admissions.appstate.edu/cost $14,416 in-state tuition, room, meal plan and textbooks, 2016-17.)

FWIW, I would not even approach the discussion via favorites or dream schools. I would approach every single school option based on estimated cost of attendance first and foremost. I would contact financial aid offices and ask specifically about how they would evaluate your financial situation. Do they meet need? How will they treat your assets? etc. I would investigate seeing if you can get an early financial read, but I would only pursue that at schools where your dds’ stats are clearly closer to the 75th percentile with the possible exception of App. I would ask App about Pell/state grants based on your situation.

Another FWIW, if you want to seek merit aid (it is the way our kids attend college), your dds really need to start looking at much lower ranked private schools. That is where they will find scholarship $$ that might bring down the cost to comparable to App in-state. I have been very proactive in the “merit hunt” pursuit, and you have to think about national and international competition for merit. You cannot compare your kids to your high school. You cannot compare your kids to people you know. Merit competition is national and global and the kids are going to be stellar in all directions. The best way to pursue merit is by ensuring they are in the very top %s of the school’s stats and that they bring something more to the school.

109

<<<
The Tar Heel hoops guys might not all have 4.0/1400s, ya think?
<<<

Right…they’re the talent admits…they’re the lower quartile. regular folks can’t really expect to be admitted when their stats are in that lower quartile. Those are the hooked admits.

110

<<<according to="" the="" college="" board,="" colleges="" add="" business="" losses="" back="" in.="" i’m="" not="" sure="" i’d="" count="" on="" agi="" being="" $0.="">>>

Based on this thread I’m not counting on it mattering at all. Assets will make AGI meaningless. Damn assets! I wish I didn…never mind. First world problem.

111

Can your kids commute? The tuition in state for you is low. Most students do live at home and commute, a residential experience isn’t a given for kids with no merit scholarships or FA. Even exploring off campus housing if they attend the same school is a consideration, here for 20K a yr I could rent my a nice 2 bed apartment accessible to the uni and have plenty of money for groceries. and for a whole year, not school time. I could actually pay less thatn R&B.

112

<<>>

I only do this for local schools where we have a scattergram for our graduates (public/charter). At UNC schools it is obvious from our history that GPA counts for a great deal more than SAT/ACT. (more than 100 data points for each of the three mentioned) A 4.0 makes it almost hard to be rejected. If you take 4.0 out of the mix, the scattergram looks like what you would expect at any fairly competitive school. Looking at ACT because it’s easier to read the graphs:

Our Director swore that schools would love our kids and they seem to locally. I just looked and it’s even true for Davidson College but I only have 15 data points to look at. 4 out of 15 of our kids were accepted, all had a 4.0 with ACT ranging from 26 to 35. App State has accepted 100% of our 3.8s with scores down to 17. Clemson middle 50% is 27-31. Not a single one of our 4.0’s have been denied including 7 below 27. 7 of 8 accepted at Wake-Forest

D1 has a 26. At UNC-CH not a single one of our grads with a 24 has been denied, if they have a 4.0 There are plenty of acceptances and rejections at 23 and the graph isn’t fine enough to tell.

D2 is interested in NCState, rather than Chapel Hill. She has a 23/3.9. At 3.8 we haven’t had a single denial.

They fit the admitted profiles of local schools just fine. It won’t be true as we go further afield but we have good options here.

Sometime in the next 2 weeks we will meet our finance guy whom we pay to be dispassionate.

113

<<<can your="" kids="" commute?="">>>
no

114

There are probably several public and private schools in your state where the girls could get merit. They would have to be in the top of the applicant pool.

Here is a list of “best value colleges in NC”. If they stay instate, they would qualify for NC aid too, right?

http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/rankings-by-state/north-carolina/

115

From an outsider’s perspective, it is counter-intuitive that schools show preference for a school with high GPAs and low test scores.

Your dd with the 26 is more solid as a UNC applicant than your dd with the 23 for NCSU. According to the common data sets, 40.9% of student with scores between 24-29 are accepted at UNC, but only 2.84% of those with scores between 18-23 at NCSU (that less than 3% number makes me wonder about your scattergram data (and how old the data is) bc most assuredly those less than 3% of students had to have major hooks for acceptance and attending a specific charter school is not going to be one.)

FWIW, please don’t take my comments personally. I am attempting to be helpful. I am brutally honest with my own kids about their profiles compared to other applicants. The college application process is absolutely not as simple as your posts centered around scattergrams are projecting. Applying wisely is the key to good outcomes come spring.

116

Thanks!

117

<<<from an="" outsider’s="" perspective,="" it="" is="" counter-intuitive="" that="" schools="" show="" preference="" for="" a="" school="" with="" high="" gpas="" and="" low="" test="" scores.="">>>

I’m not sure that I see it that way since an increasing number of schools aren’t demanding test scores at all. The main example in NC is Wake-Forest but the list gets longer every year. (Bryn Mawr, Wesleyan, Union, and Franklin & Marshall come to mind). I don’t think our school has high GPAs - only the kids applying to these schools. Plenty of our kids have lower GPAs and didn’t get in.

You are being helpful and I appreciate it. Their numbers don’t guarantee that they’ll get in anywhere (and indeed, if D2 doesn’t get into the Design Program that requires a portfolio she won’t go to NCSU) but our scattergrams suggest that they have a better shot than the CDS suggests. Her 3.9/23 is surrounded by green spots. Only one student over 3.75 (ish - it’s hard to tell) was denied and they had a 21. We even got a couple of 20s.

118

<<<(that less than 3% number makes me wonder about your scattergram data (and how old the data is) bc most assuredly those less than 3% of students had to have major hooks for acceptance and attending a specific charter school is not going to be one.)>>>

I’ll ask our advisors. The data is from the last three years on naviance.

119

Are you sure it is only from the last 3 years? If you look at the 2011-12 NCSU data set the rate is 18-23 25.34%, and the 2012-13 data set is 18-23 17.18%. You jump to the 2013-14 data and you see 18-23 4.6%.

I suspect you have older data skewing your scattergram b/c your posts do not mesh with what students the past couple of yrs are reporting.

120

<<<are you="" sure="" it="" is="" only="" from="" the="" last="" 3="" years?="">>>

We can’t be off by much because our first graduating class was May 2014. How does data get into naviance?

I know that some data is correct because of a few one-off students at big deal schools. We have 1 each at Harvard, Chicago, and Cornell who show up in the right years.