it’s not necessarily a story of denial. The question asks how YOU see the flag. If most people do not tie it to racist meanings, that is their choice.
the same thing can mean different things to different people.
So soccer guy, are you saying that the meaning of a symbol is independent of fact or historical context? That it is merely a function of how each individual now “sees” that symbol?
If the majority of Germans whose ancestors weren’t persecuted under Hitler and exterminated by the Nazi regime suddenly started claiming that, in their eyes, the swastika really symbolizes “pride in German Heritage”, they aren’t engaging in cognitive dissonance? That they should be free, without a sense of irony or shame-facedness, to advocate for the flying of that flag under the auspices of government? That the Jews should just “understand” and take them at their word that they “mean no harm”?
Really?
“South Carolina Senate Casts First Vote to Remove Confederate Flag”
^ Excellent.
poetsheart
I’m saying that (for example) YOU cannot define what something means to ME.
It might mean something completely different to both of us. Why is that not acceptable?
In turn, just because I might feel a certain way about something, does not mean that YOU should also feel how I feel about it. The argument I am trying to make is subtle… if someone always views the flag in question as racist, that is completely acceptable. But it should be acknowledged that there are people that fly that flag not intending to make a racist statement, because that is not what it means to THEM. However, they have no control over how others perceive the flag. It is also a fair point that if most other people find your flag offensive, even though you do not intend for it to be so, that perhaps you should not display it.
Question: People attach a wide variety of meanings to the word “feminism” … can they not do so for a flag also?
Question: Do you believe the U.S. flag is offensive and represents the genocide of native americans and therefore should not be flown? Or do you choose to associate the U.S. flag with other things?
Could the answer be this simple - because your position does not count in his world, and since he thinks his world represents the “correct” way of thinking, then you must be wrong in your view.
You can love a symbol privately and still realize that too many of your fellow lovers love it for all the wrong reasons. When you share that love with people like these folks, sorry, but others are going to make judgments about you, like it or not, fair or unfair:
(And while the New York Times doesn’t link to it in the article, you can Google the bar’s website and see this repulsive stuff for yourself.)
Face it guys - you lost the war. It was fought for dishonorable reasons in the first place. It wasn’t “the war of northern aggression” or whatever revisionist euphemism you are trying to come up with - and it wasn’t fought over the abstraction of state 's rights - it was fought over the right to own slaves and the belief that blacks were inherently inferior. And enough with this “honoring your ancestors” nonsense. Germans have the decency not to honor their ancestors who fought for Hitler. Why don’t you try the same. Stop sucking your thumb and maybe actually do something to improve that part of the country. Try emphasizing your many good qualities and heritage aspects instead of being stuck on the shameful parts. And pro tip - if you don’t want the rest of the country to think you are ignorant rednecks, don’t do ignorant redneck things.
Here’s an interesting article on New York City’s history of slavery and it’s monuments to slavery. Perhaps as we erase/correct all those statues of various slave owners and Confederate leaders, we will do the same to Delancy Street, Chambers Street, and even Wall Street (since the wall was built by the forced labor of slaves).
http://gothamist.com/2015/07/06/nyc_slave_history.php
Here’s another article with an interesting animation of Civil War markers and monuments, all over the country. Most of them cropped up in the 20th century. They’re not all controversial as many of them are simply dispassionate historical markers of battles or strategic places. Curious that there are so many in Kansas and so few in Louisiana. Curious also that so many crop up in northwest Georgia in the 1950’s that they seem to form a mountain ridge.
Glad to know that an overwhelming 37 - 3 senate vote will remove the Confederate Battle Flag from SC’s capital building! Let’s hope for a similar outcome from the house.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/07/us/south-carolina-capitol-confederate-battle-flag.html?_r=0
I don’t see what civil war markers / monuments have to do with anything. Civil war markers are part of history. There’s no need to take them down, or start wholesale renaming any place with Lee or Jackson in the title. It’s not about denying history, it’s that we don’t fly the loser’s flags over our govt monuments. (Of course, private individuals fully retain these rights to fly whatever flags they desire on their own property,)
I don’t have a problem with dispassionate historical markers, but many of the pro-Confederacy Civil War monuments and statues went up in the 20th century in order to foster segregation, or to revive the “glory of a bygone era”. You may feel it’s fine to draw the line with removing a flag but many people want to go further. Where I live, there was a push to rename public schools for people who hadn’t been slave owners. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
De Lancey was a nasty piece of work:
ETA - it’s not scrubbing history to remove something that is meant as a positive monument, or an honorary street or park or building name. The person or event can still be noted but without the rosy glow of a monument giving us a false view of their history.
It’s telling that the Founders didn’t try purging the names of English kings and queens from the map after winning the American War of Independence. Loser’s names are still on Virginia, North and South Carolina (for King Charles), Georgia, Maryland, New York and innumerable cities and other landmarks.
“Perhaps as we erase/correct all those statues of various slave owners and Confederate leaders, we will do the same to Delancy Street, Chambers Street, and even Wall Street (since the wall was built by the forced labor of slaves)”
There is a big difference between Delancy Street, Wall Street, etc. No one holds them up as symbol of anything relating to slaves/rebellion/, etc.
I haven’t head or seen “Delancy” bumper stickers on cars or a street sign with Delancy on it in their front yard. Even if there were a few, no one would have a clue what it was about.
Perhaps because people don’t know about Delancy street, etc., and what it came from (and we should).
I wasn’t comparing Delancy Street to the Confederate Battle Flag anyway, but to renaming other symbols of the Confederacy, say a street that was renamed in 1910 for Jefferson Davis.
Yes, we still have English names on the map. We also have lots of Washington, Jefferson, Fayetteville, Pulaski, and other names that are associated with the winning side of the American Revolution. I doubt they were all new towns or roads.
Most of California is still named in Spanish, even though the Spanish decimated the Native Americans, and we won the Mexican-American war.
"Perhaps because people don’t know about Delancy street, etc., and what it came from (and we should).
I wasn’t comparing Delancy Street to the Confederate Battle Flag anyway, but to renaming other symbols of the Confederacy, say a street that was renamed in 1910 for Jefferson Davis."
Delancy- no matter how evil still didn’t commit an act of treason and aggression against the Union as, for instance, Jefferson Davis did. But that being said, I don’t care what the southern states do with their monuments, building names or street names. I don’t really even care if they keep their stupid flag up and, imo, the taking down of it has only been because they have been shamed. If not for the murders of 9 people, there would have been no legislation passed to remove it or any groundswell from the citizens of SC. These things simply show me what kind of people they are and the nature of politicians they elect.
@emilybee sweeping generalizations regarding certain people is what caused someone with a distorted sense of reality to go on a murderous spree to start with. I think we need to think about how we present things so that our words are not misconstrued to support their mispercepti
I’m saying that (for example) YOU cannot define what something means to ME.
It might mean something completely different to both of us. Why is that not acceptable?"
It’s fine when it’s your own private property. It’s not fine when it’s on a government building, which is implicit endorsement by the government.
Soccerguy, when it is repeatedly told to you that a) African-Americans (with good reason) find the flag exceedingly offensive, and b) the rest of the country outside the south pretty much thinks of it as offensive as well and rolls their eyes at your “need” to display it, and yet c) you don’t care one bit that it offends others, what does that say about you as a person?
@carolinamon2boys,
What am I supposed to think? This flag has been somewhere on the grounds of your state Capitol for over 50 years.
Sorry, but IMO. It is a reflection of the people in your state and the people they elect to represent them. It’s only because most of the rest of the nation your state is finally doing something about. If the murders hadn’t happened do you believe anything would be done about that flag? I don’t.