@jazzymom - Good post. I’ve spent thousands of hours in the church building over the last 20 years, in worship, in classes, in ministry, in meetings, and even in weeknight Bible studies. A church should be – MUST be – a refuge from the world, a haven of peace and safety. I can’t even imagine what Sunday meeting for worship would be like if I knew or suspected that the pastor and my fellow worshipers were packing heat. But such a place definitely wouldn’t deserve the name “sanctuary.”
@ xiggi-
Comparing Mexico to the US is a bit unfair, Mexico does not have the legal teeth to back up their laws, it isn’t Mexico is a lawless society, it is that Mexico for whatever reasons puts very little money into law enforcement, and as a result it is often corrupted by the drug gangs and such that are committing these acts. It doesn’t help that there is a huge flow of guns from the US into Mexico, in part because of the way our laws are. Europe has experienced massacres, of course, the incident in Paris with Charlie Hedbo shows that no laws can totally protect citizens from these kind of things. However, if you look at stats in the EU zone, on shooting deaths, on mass shootings we have seen far too many of in the US, the rate is a paltry fraction of what we see in the US. Strict gun laws don’t prevent every incident, nothing will, but when you have cases like the kid who shot up Virginia tech, the kid in connecticut, the jackwagon who shot up the movie theater in Colorado, potentially this idiot in South Carolina, a case can be made that with restricted gun laws in the EU, that at the very list people with mental health issues and criminal backgrounds (as this shooter apparently did), would not get guns. In Europe, if a father gave his son a gun like that, and the kid had a criminal record and/or mental health issues, and he goes on to commit a crime, he would be charged, because of the lax laws in South Carolina, what he did was perfectly legal, he could buy a gun, give it to his son, and it didn’t matter if the kid had a criminal history, mental health issues, it was perfectly legal (I haven’t seen any references to Carolina law, but from what I can tell the father could give the kid a gun he already had, or buy one under his name, pass the background check, then give it to his son and there was no reporting required).
The problem isn’t about liberties, about gun ownership, it is about gun ownership with no consequences, no idea that with gun ownership comes responsibilities. Buy a car, register it, then you give it to someone without turning in the license plates, signifying change in ownership, if that person uses it committing a crime, you likely would go to jail as an accomplish. In more than a few states, you give a gun to someone who commits a crime, you can say “oh, must have been stolen or I lost it”, and there was no requirement you report it lost or stolen, so you can give guns to criminals, buy guns legally and sell it to criminals, and you can get away with claiming the gun in question was lost in stolen (people in states like Georgia and Virginia do that all the time, buy guns, load up their trunks, and sell it in places with restrictive gun laws in the black market, and if it gets traced back, they say “oh, damn, must have lost it”.
Maybe if the father in this case had to actually think of the consequences of giving a gun as a gift (for example, if he had to alert the state about giving the kid the gun, which as far as I know , South Carolina doesn’t require, other states definitely don’t), there would be some accountability. Funny thing about liberties, something the extreme gun nuts don’t take into consideration, is that with liberty comes responsibilities, too, and when something that is a liberty ends up being a detriment to society, it is how it becomes restricted. Prohibition happened because there were real problems with alcohol consumption in the US, there were no rules about serving hours, alcohol content, serving drunken people, too many bars in a given area, you name it, and prohibition happened. What happened after prohibition should be a model for gun ownership, by limiting liquor licenses, by having rules on how many bars can exist, when they open, who they can serve, the problems with alcohol , as much as alcoholism is still a problem, are minor compared to the way it was pre prohibition.
Later today I am going to play the song ‘Abraham, Martin and John,’ to help me to diminish my sadness about this event. I want to hear that song because those lyrics are about leaders whose voices of peace and unity were literally shouted down, by bullets. These 9 people in Charleston appeared to be leaders, the kind of people that we need in our communities. Their passing is a tremendous loss for people of goodwill, and not just in South Carolina.
Guns, bombs. it doesn’t matter. Vile racists who want to kill black people, even in their houses of worship, will find a way. In some ways, for some people, little has changed between 1963 when four little girls were killed for the crime of being black when their church was bombed, and 2015, when nine people were killed for the very same reason as they sat at Bible study.
People who want to kill blacks find support in the comments of some prominent people who make veiled references to “others” in wanting to “take back the country”. They find support online in discussion groups, in RL groups and in seeing people turn the other way or keeping silent when they start speaking or publishing their views. And it isn’t only in the south. A friend of mine published a photo this morning of a guy on one of the ferries out of Seattle wearing a swastika armband. This happened last night, and the guy looked right into the camera. He WANTED people to see him. The photographer didn’t mention anyone calling him out.We can call them evil and terrorists and any other term we like, but they aren’t alone and they know it. And the violence continues.
And yet, @musicprnt more people lose their lives to drunk drivers than to gun homicides. In 2013, 10,076 were killed by drunk drivers. In 2012 according to the FBI 8,855 people were killed in gun homicides. And with alcohol there may be a lot of overlap with the gun homicides, in other words, how many of those who killed someone with a gun were drunk?)
I am much more fearful of being killed by a drunk driver than by a gun. But there is little outcry against drunk drivers. Something like 7 out of 10 drunk drivers involved in a fatal crash have more than one drunk driving arrest.
I think the difference in the outrage is that drunk driving does not feed into the culture wars like guns do.
And yes, I am still thinking of those UCSD medical students who were killed by a drunk driver. No national outrage, no presidential statement. Just another day on the road.
I think the Internet is escalating the number of these incidents. In the past, radicalized people were fairly isolated. But now they find idealogical compatriots online just a click away, who give these evil people a sense of validation.
It’s no wonder ISIS spends considerable effort making slick propaganda videos.
I actually don’t think that the problem is the existence of a gun in and of itself. As we know, there are plenty of people who have hunting rifles or shotguns or target pistols who would never, ever perpetuate this kind of horror, nor do they keep them because of some crazy notion that they are going to have to defend their family or take on a tyrannical government. There are people who collect guns like other people collect watches. They keep the guns unloaded in a gun safe away from small children.
I think the problem is our CULTURE of violence, which is old. And the paranoia that seems to have been growing unchecked in our nation over the last couple of decades, especially since 9/11.
There is the ludicrous myth that the average person needs a gun to “defend” themselves. Not a person taking the daily receipts to the bank at 2 am in a sketchy area, but some guy with a 9-5 job in a cube farm who lives in a safe suburb. Then there is the myth that the average person actually COULD effectively “defend” themselves, rather than shooting their wife, neighbor, an innocent bystander in a road rage incident, their teen coming home late at night, or letting their 3 yr old kill their 4 yr old because you know you HAVE to keep that weapon loaded and available in case the boogeyman comes!
Then there is the whole thing that glorifies violence and points to violence as the optimum solution for conflict. The whole Rambo mentality. The if-it-bleeds-it-leads 24-hour news cycle. I honestly think that people are becoming inured to violence at some level. Stephen Spielberg said something about how it thought it would actually be a good thing if some young boys who though war was a video game sat through the graphic depiction of the Normandy landing in Saving Private Ryan and came out crying. I think it would be a good thing if a lot of people had seen video of the inside of the Sandy Hook school. In color. Let’s face it: some of those kids must have been torn apart.
The problem is the mass insanity that drives people to think they need to acquire weapons that look like weapons of war, and in some cases function like them too. And then to think that they are justified in using them to “solve” their problems. Kids who think of shooting up their school. Racists who think of shooting up a church. Political extremists who think of shooting at a congresswoman or killing a bunch of liberals in THEIR church watching a kids’ show.
Guns just make it easier.
I know a number of people who were stuck in New Orleans during Katrina and were sure glad to have a gun to defend themselves when the NOPD was not on call.
@GMTplus7, did any of them use their guns?
The difference is that we as a society are outraged enough about drunk driving to actually do something about it. Much has been done over the last 30 years to curtail it. Many laws have been passed and enforced. The highly effective MADD has changed attitudes about it. Drunk driving fatalities have been [significantly reduced](http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html) as a result. Can any of those things be said about gun violence?
Gun homicides are way down also.http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/
, @oldmom4896 I don’t know about Katrina, but I clearly remember the L. A riots of 1992. A very scary time. The police were no where while something like 40 people were killed and the city was on fire.
Look in the archives of the LA Times and you will find photos of Korean store owners standing on the roofs of their stores with guns, trying to protect their property and their lives.
P. S. Don’t think I am a gun owner. I am afraid of guns. But I am way more afraid of drunk drivers killing me than being killed in a mass shooting and I think that statistics bear me out.
Someone with a convenience store in a sketchy area qualifies as a person whose belief that the gun behind the counter might actual be used for self-protection is realistic.
Unlike the vast majority of other gunowners.
@oldmom4896 post#148,
Not that I know of.
But many people also carry disability insurance and never “use” it. Does that mean they shouldn’t take out a policy?
*Well, I tried, but it seems people are determined to do nothing but debate gun control. There has been maybe one reference, maybe two, to the actual topic of the thread for several pages. I mean, they set bond for this guy at $1 million an hour ago and no one has even mentioned it. I thought many would be outraged they allowed any bail. Or does SC require bail? Seems like a discussion.
If someone wants to start a thread with a title like “Would Better Gun Control Have Stopped the SC Killings” feel free, but for anyone that wanted to actually discuss the event itself further it seems rather hopeless. Closing thread.
P.S. Just got a note from another member that cleared up the bond issue. I only saw the phone alert. See? If this had stayed on topic I would have known!
*I am going to reopen this thread because I agree with @oldmom4896 that this is an important topic and discussion in America right now. Also because @GMTplus7 has opened a thread devoted to the gun control aspect http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1786003-would-better-gun-control-have-stopped-the-sc-killings.html
So stay on topic please, and if you post on the gun control thread stay respectful, keep the personal comments about other members out, and avoid political comments that are clearly directed at certain politicians or political parties, etc. In other words keep it factual and opinions based on facts and calm reasoning, as opposed to name calling and emotional arguments directed at people that disagree with you. I know those are a lot of restrictions, but I also know that those of you that have been here a long time know that this is the only way it can work. Thanks!*
Thank you, @fallenchemist. (I flagged the message with which fallenchemist closed the thread.)
Let the fruitful discussion commence.
This makes me feel so sad. Really? Did he think that these good-hearted church-going people were going to be awful to him?
Victims’ families were at Roof’s bond hearing today and it seems all said they forgave him…I don’t think he has a bit of remorse in him. Where’s Roof’s parents? Haven’t heard boo about them.