<p>I’m not even sure what I’m looking for here. Comments, or anything really. You’ll see that I kind of know what to do, so please just bear with me. Throughout my year or so on CC, I managed to build a list of schools that I would be happy to attend and to participate in the discussions about those schools. In that time, I met a lot of parents and students who told me they’d love for me to go to their certain school. If I can be obtuse (and I can), I recently figured out that I wouldn’t be able to please everyone.</p>
<p>I applied to six schools, but it’s not so hopeless as to be a 6-way-toss-up. Two were fantastic safety schools (see thread about St. Mary’s of MD) which I’ve already sent notice of my attending elsewhere. It was hard to even do that, but I knew I should get it over with quickly so that other people can get the merit money I’m turning down. Another two are great, well-known schools that anybody would be happy to attend. I’m not even sure yet if I’ll be accepted to either, but I decided that the two schools weren’t entirely right for me. I’m left with Dartmouth and Washington & Lee, two schools I like equally (in a lot of cases for the same reasons, in a lot of cases for different reasons) a lot. It will be free for me to attend W&L, and probably around $5000-$8000 a year to attend Dartmouth (not sure yet exactly, but like I said, I wanted to get it out there before these threads become too common this year). So, I pretty much know what to do. There’s no use reading too far into it, right? If I like two schools equally, and am unable to decide, and one will be freer than the other, then I should go to that one. </p>
<p>I suppose I really just wrote way too much to ask the simple question “how do you feel about Dartmouth, W&L, Dartmouth vs. W&L, or any combination of the abbreviations?”</p>
<p>Without getting into specific colleges. I don’t even know what other schools are on your list.</p>
<p>I think that you should really sit down and consider the realities of riding the Greyhound bus to a school with the most uniformly wealthy student body in the United States, a school that literally exists to serve a wealthy clientele with no historic effort to expand that base.</p>
<p>If I were a student who qualified for a near full-boat need-blind finanicial package, I would personally not choose a college where 71% of the students pay the full price and are so well-heeled that 65% of them don’t even APPLY for finanical aid. Combine those astonishing numbers with the cliquishness (and expectation of being able to easily afford significant extra expenses) of 80% fraternity membership. I would feel like, and indeed would be, a social outcast.</p>
<p>Of the two schools you mentioned, Dartmouth is a vastly more diverse school, by any measure (racial/ethnic and socioeconomic). While it has its share of blue-blood frat boys, it also have a significant percentage of students from all backgrounds. IMO, any student who falls outside of the dominant social culture should place considerable weight on the diversity of the campus. Simply put, is there ANYBODY else like me at the school?</p>
<p>You have to make up your own mind. But, IMO, you owe it to yourself to kick the idea of social and economic “fit” around with your folks.</p>
<p>That’s my two cents worth. Keep the change!</p>
<p>Sorry, I should have mentioned that the W&L money is merit. Now, yeah, that doesn’t mean that most of what you said isn’t true, but I’m not worried about it. None of that has been a problem during high school (exact same situation), and I don’t expect it to be a problem in college.</p>
<p>But I do thank you for the comments, and hope others reply (either in kind or otherwise).</p>
<p>Edit: The other schools were Harvard and Swarthmore. I wouldn’t be happy with the competition at the former, and the latter just isn’t as right for me as the two schools in question. I certainly don’t regret applying to either, though.</p>
<p>I suggest waiting until you hear from Harvard and Swats. You may find that their financial package is better than what Dartmouth has to offer, and comparable to W&L. Granted, Swats might not be a good fit. I would say, though, that the student bodies at Dartmouth and at Harvard are interchangeable in terms of academic profile. The social scene is different, in large part because of their different locations, but I would supect that Dartmouth students are as competitive as Harvard students. When we toured Harvard and Dartmouth, the student guides came from the same school in a suburb of Boston. I don’t know enough about W&L to comment.</p>
<p>Unless you went to a prestigious boarding school, I doubt very much that 71% of your high school classmates’ families could write a $35,000 tuition check each year. I don’t think that 71% of Beverly Hills High could write that kind of annual check.</p>
<p>All of the other schools you mention have significantly more diversity, both racial/ethnic and socio-economic. I can only speak as a parent, but I would be very hesitant to send a kid to a college where there would be nobody else like him or her.</p>
<p>I went to a college that was uniformly white and wealthy. It was a very challenging experience for friends who were outside that norm and it was not a college with a lot of visible trappings of wealth.</p>
<p>Let me give you a real world example of how diversity impacts the culture of a college. My daughter’s friends took a trip to NYC last semester. Although there is Amtrak service door to door, they took the Chinatown bus. Why? Because the difference between $10 for the bus and $35 for the train was significant to a number of the kids going. I think the fact that all 16 of the kids were comfortable riding the Chinatown bus is a good thing. Very different than a school where everyone not only has a car, but a fancy car.</p>
<p>“I can only speak as a parent, but I would be very hesitant to send a kid to a college where there would nobody else like him or her.”</p>
<p>I understand that I asked for opinions, and I do appreciate them-- it’s pretty much what I wanted to hear the parents say, since I expected it-- but this part sat wrongly with me. I’m not unlike other people because of the financial seeds my parents have sown. I understand that there would be a difference between how we have lived, but I don’t agree agree that it means there is “nobody else like [me]”. And as far as the “difference” goes, isn’t being different the same thing as diversity? How could the diversity problem you cite get better if it never starts to get better?</p>
<p>I realize this is starting to turn into a “when you ask a question, don’t be offended by the answers that you get” situation, and I apologize. I guess I was just more looking for discussion about the schools than a “where should I go?” I should have worded it as such.</p>
<p>Let me be blunt. Do you have a closet full of Ralph Lauren Polo shirts? Do you have your own car? Is it a BMW or a Lexus? Do you have the $500 or $1000 a year for fraternity dues? If the answer to these is “no” (and it would be a “no” for my daughter), then why would you choose a school where the answer is a resounding “yes” for the vast majority of the campus?</p>
<p>Trust me, there are plenty of rich people at the other schools you mentioned. Richer than we could ever imagine. But, the exclusive campus and social culture at those schools is not one of conspicuous wealth.</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I offended you. I’ll back out of this conversation at this point, because clearly my sincere advice is not what you want to hear.</p>
<p>I don’t think you will go wrong at either. </p>
<p>I’ll echo some of Interested Dad’s comments, in that W&L is very much a wealthy-kid school. BUT - you are going to get that at Dartmouth, which is also very wealthy… almost all of the top schools are. I remember being the odd kid out at my undergrad becuase I drove a 12 year old car - sure, it’s a Volvo, but it’s old. The cars in the W&L parking lot are just as nice, but probably not nicer, than the ones at my undergrad. </p>
<p>I do think that W&L gives out a fair amount of financial aid. They are also a “cheap” school, or used to be, so take the 65% number with a grain of salt. If I’m not mistaken, only a few years ago, the entire bill was $25k/year. It’s still only in the $30ks now… but really, if it’s $25k/year, most kids who are accepted to top colleges can foot that bill (see Mini’s threads on wealth and colleges). That is moving up to $40k/year, and the kids are upset… I wonder if that is to increase financial aid (and thus diversity). </p>
<p>I’ve heard enough bad things about Dartmouth being the last bastion of male dominance (in New England) to have not applied there undergrad. </p>
<p>Both are rural schools with heavy frat scenes. Both are very prestigous in their own way, and both will help you out a lot with strong alumni connections. </p>
<p>Overnight at both schools, and then go with your gut.</p>
<p>I agree Willywonka, not having a BMW does not make you a misfit at any college. People have their own issues, that this is not one of yours is a good thing. Good luck!! I’s choose Dartmouth if you can swing it even though it will have lots of rich kids!!</p>
<p>Having a culture of wealth is not really about having lots of money. Swats probably has as many rich kids as W&Lee and perhaps some who are uber-rich. Ditto Harvard and Dartmouth. It’s more about open display and assumptions. I once read an article about sales staff at chic boutiques in Boston who got thrown off by customers who wore “serviceable” shoes and turned out to be quite wealthy. The article explained that sales staff are usually trained to use shoes as indices of wealth and potential for making a sale; but in the case of Boston, the article argued, such strategy was ill-placed. As for assumptions, an acquaintance who had moved to one of Boston wealthier suburbs, complained that the teacher assumed that the kids’s parents would be willing to buy purple clothes that would be worn for the school play, which was going to be performed only once. He could afford to buy the clothes. But he was still shocked at the automatic assumption that the families could afford to make such an expenditure and would be willing to make it.</p>
<p>If Willywonka feels he can cope with situations like this over the next four years, then W&Lee has a lot going for it, not the least of it the more generous financial package. I still think that Swats, Harvard and Dartmouth are better schools. :)</p>
<p>Dartmouth, from what I understand, has a very heavy frat scene (drinking, partying), despite the lower numbers of kids in frats. IMO, it’s a rural school thing. </p>
<p>I think some of this depends on the money. $8k/year is not that much, if you are careful - take a job, put $2k or so towards that per year; get a summer job, pay off another $3k - graduate with about $12k in debt, which is only about $110/month for 10 years - not really that much. (On the other hand, letting that pile up for 4 years leaves you with more debt burden than you should take on as an undergrad: $32k, or more as tuition goes up, is too much.) Are the parents chipping in? Do you plan on going to grad school?</p>
<p>marite, better schools for WW or better schools for everybody? And I thought WW had ruled out Swat and Harvard based on whatever personal criteria he had. As we have determined many times before, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. W and L is probably too traditional for my tastes but it is a fine national caliber academic institution . If WW has received a merit award it appears it is the George Washington Honors and that scholarship competition required a meeting on campus March 1-3. Should have been long enough to get a good feel for the campus dynamic. </p>
<p>What about it WW? Have you been to the W+L campus? If you like it ,don’t hesitate to go there. Use your own impressions and don’t let us sway you.We may know a little about the school but we don’t know diddly about you and what makes you tick. There are some on the board that consider anything below the Mason-Dixon line or west of Pennsylvania as an educational gulag. There might even be some who consider all NE schools as overpriced and over-hyped. Both camps are just showing their regional bias or rooting for the home team. Rah-Rah-Sis-Boom-Bah.</p>
<p>You can find enlightenment under a mesquite tree and starve intellectually in the middle of the finest library. It’s all in what environment stirs you to wonder, and to wander, and to explore. And we can’t tell you where that is. You’re going to have to tell yourself.</p>
<p>That doesn’t apply to my thinking. At my encouragement, my daughter looked primarily at southern schools. She had two schools north of the Mason-Dixon line on her college list. One of them was first on her list. The other was, I think, third behind Emory and just ahead of Davidson.</p>
<p>What would everyone’s feeling be if they had an African-American (4%), Hispanic/Latino (1%), Asian-American (2%), or Jewish (2%) son or daughter considering W&L?</p>
<p>OK, how would you feel about an Af-Am, Hispanic, or Asian-Am son or daughter going to Colby?</p>
<p>Would the small non-white enrollment concern you at all? Would you wonder about the school’s real commitment to diversity? Or, if not that, what aspects of the campus environment are keeping non-white students from attending? </p>
<p>Would you be concerned that son or daughter might feel more marginalized than at a school with somewhat higher percentages?</p>
<p>I once read a message from WillyWonka stating that he/she would never consider a school that didn’t place a priority on diversity. It is difficult to reconcile that with the numbers at W&L.</p>
I don’t know enough about W&L to comment.</p>