<p>Someone has to start the process of diversity.</p>
<p>I’dad those would not only be concerns, those would be concerns that kept me up at night. It would take a lot of convincing to allow my daughter to attend a school where she could feel marginalized by reason of her race, ethnicity, religion or lack thereof, sexual orientation or politics. I would counsel and caution and investigate and challenge and IF D felt strongly she wanted to go there after all that-I would let her go. With her eyes wide open. </p>
<p>For a short while D considered the service academies and for even a shorter while VMI and/or The Citadel. I almost fainted. We researched and researched and she came to the conclusion that maybe 90/10 was a bit much to handle on a daily basis. Pity. She would have been great at it if she had felt the environment was more open to females. It may be. She just couldn’t get comfortable with it. Too bad. She’d have liked to have the challenge.</p>
<p>I think that the op should pick dartmouth</p>
<p>I’d like to know more about what WW finds attractive about either WL or Dart before offering an opinion. I’m not particularly a fan of either (and, yes, for my d, WL would be beyond the pale, but she found the drinking at Williams beyond the pale, too), but obviously WW did find something worth pursuing there, and so I think we need to hear more from him before jumping to conclusions.</p>
<p>WW,</p>
<p>Do not let the money stop you. Take the money out of the equation. 5-8K a year YOU can earn if you want to. Maybe you could be a RA next year… Maybe D will even bump up your aid a wee bit if you ask them. Anyway, it is not enough money to make the choice a slam dunk. </p>
<p>Let the heart of the school speak to you and go where you feel drawn to go. If you can figure out where you will be happiest, most engaged, most “at home” with the school culture-- where you will have the most fun-- go there. If you can overnight at both, do that. If not, see if you can meet some students through livejournal or the admission office to give you the skinny over the phone.</p>
<p>Consider the educational aspects of being far from home vs. near. I have no idea where you live but if you lived in NH this would give an edge to W&M in my book. Go experience something new, it is part of getting educated IMHO.</p>
<p>Consider what you want to do next-- grad school? Where do you want to live? Might impact your choice as well.</p>
<p>Finally, congratulations on your hard work and your achievements! You are in to such great schools. BRAVO.</p>
<p>Willie (Bobbie) there is another criteria I would use in choosing the right college for you: I know you said you live in the DelMarva peninsula in Maryland, but Swat is too close for you (by my criteria, not my son’s), and I’d recommend you go to Dartmouth. I don’t know how close W&L is to your home.</p>
<p>I know I said I would have loved for you to go to Swat, but, heck, it’s your decision and I understand why you would love Dartmouth. So I’d say go to Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Hi WillyWonka,</p>
<p>I have missed you on the boards. I have tried not to weigh in on the situation because we have chatted a lot on the Dartmouth board and I do not know anything about W/L (other than what I have read).</p>
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<p>The net-net is that this situation will very likely happen at a great number of schools with a $30,000/$40,000 sticker price including some public schools (we also saw it at Harvard, Williams, Amherst, Bryn Mawr, Barnard, Columbia, Tufts and the list could go on) because at some level it is par for the course. As a poorer parent whose child is getting a nice chunk of aid to attend Dartmouth, I have asked and was concerned about the conspicuous wealth. She felt that in some ways it was no different from being home (even though she attended public school, she has some very wealthy friends). At Dartmouth, while yes she has a lot of friends who are indeed very wealthy, they are down to earth, and she has never experienced anyone flaunting their wealth as some of them are working on campus jobs just like she does. Money is not a bad thing; the problem is peoples attitude about money. Heck you have people who cant rub 2 nickels together that feel that they can flaunt a quarter over rent money.</p>
<p>She hasnt seen a lot of expensive cars on campus, because parking is a bear to get on campus and over all the campus is a little more laid back. She has however, seen a lot of bikes and skates. But this is also the place where if you are short on cash a student (rich or poor) that you may not know by name will not have a problem swiping their DBA to purchase you a meal.</p>
<p>The collar popping Ralph Lauren Polo shirt wearing is in her opinion more of a girl thing, as the girls are dressing way neater than the fellas who are pretty much a jeans and t-shirts, crowd. Yes, everyone wears a good coat because it gets really cold. Truth be told shes a Ralph Lauren Polo collar popping girl herself (but she has not problem and takes pride in the fact that she likes to save a dollar and picks hers up at Century 21, Syms, Filienes basement for a fraction of the price and pocketing the money because her real vice is shades which she doesnt believe in paying full price for). Hey but in Hanover the biggest thing in town is the Gap, so unless you are shopping on line you see a lot of Gap clothes. </p>
<p>While there will be great folks and jerks everywhere, she describes most of the Dartmouth people as everyday folks and there is a strong sense of community on campus. She does not feel any of the cutthroat competitiveness at Dartmouth because you rarely hear anyone talk about how they did on a test or what grade someone got. Form her experience; everyone is always willing to help someone out. Drinking, happens on almost every campus in this country. Her take is she is not a drinker, she has friends who drink. If she goes out with them seh does look out for them to make sure that they don’t get in over their hear, but for the most part there is plenty to do if you are not a drinker. </p>
<p>In the end I think that you could and should wait for his financial aid letter from Harvard, and if Dartmouth is his first choice, request a financial review showing them the Harvard offer and Dartmouth will most likely match it since it would be need for need vs. need for merit aid. Also look at the terms of your merit award at W/L. What happens if you have an bad term? Is it is based on a specific GPA each term or each year? If you lose it some semester, do you have a chance of getting it back?</p>
<p>I think you have already had your visit to W/L, you should also plan to go to Dimensions. If you need aid for the trip, contact Cheryl Sprang and she will help you out.</p>
<p>All the best.</p>
<p>Thank you Sybbie. There is often an attitude on this site of wealthy kids being different and something to avoid. I can only imagine that those espousing that view do not know many. I was in a small minority without money on a wealthy campus back in the 70s, and never once did I feel left out in any way. Kids are not hung up on money, it seems only some of the adults are.</p>
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<p>We are not talking “a” wealthy campus here. We are talking a specific college with a very specific tradition/reputation/culture. I get that the sense that some here may not have grown up in the south, attended southern prep schools, and may not be familar with clientele this particular college serves, to a higher degree and more exclusively than any other school in the United States.</p>
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<p>I thank you too, Sybbie. I’ve been poor (food-stamp poor) and I’ve been what I guess some would call “wealthy,” but I would defy anyone to be able to tell which I am right now by my - or more importantly for this discusssion, my kids’ - attitude or behavior. Two of my kids just spent two weeks (spring break) doing what to my eyes amounts to near-slave labor (really: hauling rocks, etc) in a volunteer project in an underdeveloped country. They do not dress “conspicuously” nor flaunt their ability to pay for school. Both work really, really hard at summer jobs.I find that the rude and arrogant “flaunters” are usually wannabes or nouveau rich.</p>
<p>A good part of this thread seems to be “wealth-bashing” with no explanation as to why. I was going to stay out of it, but “classism” is a prejudice just like racism and sexism, no matter which direction it goes. Fuming about Polo and Lauren and Lexuses (Lexi???) is little different than fuming about… well, fill in your own terms - any I would suggest might just start a ruckus. Besides, why bash the class that pays the vast majority of the taxes in the country, creates most of the jobs, philanthropically supplies much of the scholarship money, etc. ad infinitum? BTW I am liberal and progressive on many issues (conservative on others), and a pragmatist on these issues - like mini 
- let the wealthy go tocollege, just charge 'em more!</p>
<p>Edit: full disclosure: I don’t own a Lexus. They are a trick: “Let’s put leather seats on a Toyota car” - 'cause that is exactly what it is - “and see if people will pay a LOT more!” ;)</p>
<p>My son, when home on spring break, was telling us about some of his college friends (at Stanford). I was impressed with the great variety of backgrounds of his friends - geographic, ethnic, religious, socioeconomic. Some friends attended some of the most prestigious prep schools in the country, while another’s immigrant parents are a housekeeper and a gardener. Some are Mormons, some are Hindus, some are Hispanic-American, some are African-American Protestants. I noticed nothing in his stories which implied any prejudice or distinction based on family background, etc. I think it is wonderful that he is having the opportunity to become acquainted with this diverse group of people, who, of course, are amazingly talented and interesting in their own right, aside from their varied origins.</p>
<p>Speaking personally, in the short-term I am much less concerned about the education of poor folks than I am about wealthy ones. Yes, I believe in the “preferential option for the poor”, but I am also aware that the poor will always be with us. I think it is wonderful when poor kids get chances that are often denied them, and support that when I can.</p>
<p>But it is the wealthy who are become opinion leaders and policy makers. They congregate heavily in “prestige” institutions, as well they should, that’s what gives the institutions their prestige (as well as their money.) Wealthy kids don’t choose to be wealthy, so it’s downright silly and counterproductive to bash them for it. It is an accident of birth. But it helps a lot when they are educated that it is indeed an accident of birth, and that they are responsible to the rest of the society to the degree to which their good fortune is not a result of their own efforts. </p>
<p>Having the opportunity for substantial dialogue across economic classes, and across the academic disciplines is, in my judgment, an unmitigated good. Class-segregated education (and many prestigious institutions, including my alma mater are approaching that) is not a good idea, not because (or only because) poor folks can’t access it, but because future opinion leaders and social policy makers are denied major educational opportunities and insights as a result. And this lack of opportunity often follows them for the rest of their lives, and we are all poorer as a result.</p>
<p>What is it about W&L that is stirring such animosity that is not brought up with Bates, Colby, etc? The combination of the South and the wealth? </p>
<p>There is a great article in the Boston Globe about “keeping up” and student debt - that kids often feel compelled to keep up with the, a wealthy kids at school, and end up accuring a lot of debt doing so. Two things: I think you’ll run into that at any private school (Northeastern was featured heavily in the article, and, although private, is not academically elite), and I think it is something that students who are not getting allowances need to deal with on their own, preferably before going to school. It might be preferable to do a work-study type job for spending money and not for loans. Granted, neither W&L nor Dartmouth will really run you into consumer debt because the towns are SO small that it’s hard to make a habit of dinners out, followed by movies and shopping. </p>
<p>Just consider that there is an additional “expense” to college that is not considered in the financial aid awards - the social expense. IMO, you’ll hit it to the same level at W&L and Dartmouth; it would be more at a city school, where there is just more to do.</p>
<p>FYI (2 things): the majority of W&L activities are free. My alma mater charged, and charged heavily, for things like a cappella concerts or dance recitals which the students did. </p>
<p>The VA/MD penninsula is about 4-5 hours from W&L.</p>
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<p>We are not comparing W&L to Bates and Colby. We are comparing it to Dartmouth, Harvard, and Swarthmore.</p>
<p>As to the particular animosity, mine is probably rooted in personal experiences. I served on student council, soccer team, and everything else for four years in a southern prep day school with a W&L man. Old-south society family – Cotilliion balls, etc. Bright kid. Personable. Absolute hellion. But, what left the most lasting impression was the way he swelled with pride when he used the n-word, referring to black people. </p>
<p>Now, I would like to think that W&L has changed, and surely it has in some ways. But, after our quick visit with my daughter when I started looking at the numbers (which are very revealing about any school), and reading the Fiske Guide (“the last bastion of the southern gentleman who can hold his liquor and is damn proud of it”), and talking to a current member of the W&L faculty, it became fairly evident that the school’s traditions remain strong and pervasive.</p>
<p>I think it is an academically good school that is dominated by its drinking culuture (Princeton Review had it listed as #2 in the country in “Liquor flows freely”). I would be wary of the social fit if I were a minority student, a Jewish student, or a student who otherwise falls outside of very dominant and somewhat anachronistic social culture.</p>
<p>To some degree, Dartmouth is viewed as being similarly “mderate/conservative” with a significant fraternity/drinking social culture. But, Dartmouth isn’t even in the same league in terms of homogenous student body. I think the numbers I posted show that quite dramatically. </p>
<p>I am not saying that WW shouldn’t got to W&L. I am only suggesting that he go there only after serious consideration of the social fit issues I have raised. I do not know WW’s “profile”, but I believe from prior posts that he was invited to the diversity weekend recruiting events at Swarthmore and Dartmouth. So I don’t think I’m raising an issue from out of left field.</p>
<p>I also know, from prior conversations that WW views himself as politically moderate/conservative. So, of the more diverse alternatives, Dartmouth might be an excellent fit – one where he could find some of the W&L style frat party scene, but one that is not exclusively dominated by that scene in case he gets to school and finds out that he “is not the right kind of people” for that crowd.</p>
<p>I’dad:</p>
<p>My guess is that you probably went to prep school about 30 years ago. (or at least after the civil war.) Pretty sure that there has been some changes in folks’ attitudes down south. </p>
<p>I bet that many current residents of the south (particularly Virginia) have actually migrated down there from the north over the past thirty or so years…</p>
<p>Willywonka,
Success in maintaining one’s individuality & integrity in the midst of a different majority value system may depend on where one sits on the inner-directed vs. outer-directed scale.
My younger D cares very much what people think of her, particularly how they rank her materially & socially. My older D cares little about that. And both attend a high school in which most of the classes, & some students in the older D’s own class, are quite wealthy & display their wealth & judge others by such display. Yet, she (the older one) has gained in stature, & helped to modify those value assumptions, by trading on an elegant intellect & artistic accomplishment, both of which are quite high-profile within the school. (It probably helps that there are several such students in her class.) Perhaps she would not be as respected in a larger school & class; it has worked here. Without conceit, she nevertheless has managed to carry herself as if she is wealthy in non-consumable ways.
My point being that interesteddad, marite, & yourself all make excellent points, which should all be considered in the decision about your relationship to a student body. Just don’t forget to examine & insert your own personality & inclinations, socially & personally, within that mix.</p>
<p>I still think we are being unfair to WW - he may want 1) an acdemically fine institution; 2) a relatively small one; 3) one where is a lot of drinking and partying; 4) one where the student body is not all that diverse; 5) one where there is a Greek scene; 6) a rural place, not close to a major city. To a lesser or greater extent, W&L and Dartmouth both fit the bill.</p>
<p>Wouldn’t be my choice, or my kid’s, but obviously works for lots of folks.</p>
<p>Imnteresteddad, I don’t think so many backs would be up if your original arguement had been heavy drinking frat school with little diversity. Fair enough, and it would make some people rethink. But your arguement was wealthy kids with BMWs.</p>
<p>If the OP gets into Harvard, it would be a terrible mistake to turn down Harvard for WL. Dartmouth would be easier to swallow, but if you like the small-town kind of campus, why didn’t you apply to Princeton instead of Harvard?</p>
<p>(just a note, im a EA deferred applicant to Harvard)</p>
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<p>No, sorry. As they say back home, that dog won’t hunt. By the late 1960’s/early 1970s, the n-word had long disappeared from the public vocabularies of educated, prep-school southern youth. It was jarring to hear it used by the generation of my peers, extremely jarring in the context of a student council meeting. </p>
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<p>In the interest of accuracy, the W&L Panhellenic Council published average sorority expenses for last year. The initiation dues averaged $670. The annual dues and expenses averaged $1475. This does not include meal plans or housing expenses. Since fraternity/sorority membership is 75%/70%, I don’t know that we can say the majority of social functions are free.</p>