Before you're absolutely tired of these in April-- X vs. Z (for me)

Parents Forum
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<p>I’Dad, are there other schools you find as repugnant as W+L or is it at the top of the trash heap? </p>

<p>The only reason I got in here at all was that I thought you were personally biased about the situation and against W+L. It appears that you admit your bias. I applaud that. I tell jury panels all the time that “bias and prejudice are in everyone-it’s just that when that bias and prejudice are hidden they are at their most dangerous”.</p>

<p>I wanted to know more about this so I checked using a search function and found a time earlier this month that you were having the same basic conversation with the same basic kid and others on a southern trip thread. (To verify this click on WW’s screen name, pick other posts by WW, then scroll down a couple of weeks.You’ll see that I’dad appeared to be counseling against W+L back then also. You’ll also see that this kid got a FULL-RIDE to W+L. Books, tuition, fees,R+B and keys to the dorm room mini-bar with amazing-I mean amazing stats.)</p>

<p>I feel like I am repeating myself, but folks it looks like a 100% certainty that this kid has seen the campus for 3-4 days and feels comfortable there. If he wants to go -whether we would want to or not is not really relevant. He will get an outstanding education at W+L. It is an incredible opportunity and one that would be very difficult for anyone to pass up.</p>

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<p>I think that every college has a dominant social culture, a dominant academic culture, and a dominant intellectual culture, and that there is often overlap among the three. (I do not, however, believe that any college of the caliber of W&L has a dominant culture of bigotry. That’s taking the general principle way too far.) I think this is especially true of LACs and probably also true of smallish (under 7000 undergrads) universities. For a student to be happy at a given school, he or she needs, first, to understand what the prevailing culture is. I think that’s best accomplished by visiting at a time when the college is not mounting a “dog and pony show” for admitted students (although I know that can be financially and logistically tough for some students). Second, once the student understands the dominant culture, he or she needs to be satisfied that it fits him, or that if it doesn’t fit him, he doesn’t mind – or even enjoys – being a little or even a lot outside the mainstream. There really are such students.</p>

<p>It sounds like you have your ducks in a row, Willie. Best of luck.</p>

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<p>

Interestingly enough Willywonka is a self-described caucasian male.</p>

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I think you show great wisdom, ww. You can get a great education at either/any of your choices. Ask yourself which one you would choose were $$ no object. Then, if $$ is an object, see if you can negotiate to improve the situation. Or ask yourself how comfortable you, personally, would be with that amount of loan to pay back in the future.</p>

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<p>WW has asked for honest opinions - not arguments - about making his choice of schools to attend. It astounds me that this thread has become such a tempest of admonition about a school like W&L. All the stats quoted in this thread do not give the real picture of what WW is looking for - but certainly sounds like alot of boasting of who thinks they know more about stats and how to interpret them.</p>

<p>The differences between Dartmouth and W&L are unique ones - they both tend to cater to the more wealthy population - but…not completely. They both offer unique opportunities which sets them apart from each other. The not-so-wealthy student will be accepted in either of these schools equally and positively - they are not in the dark ages - and the southern school has come far from the yesteryear attitudes of the n… reference in this thread. Maybe one of the biggest differences between these schools is that the southern counterpart may be a bit more formal in some ways than it’s northern counterpart - as a school steeped in history and tradition.</p>

<p>As far as the frat scene - all frats have expenses!! so including that as a consideration is rediculous as a difference between these schools. Yes W&L has a very strong frat presence - it is also - in large part - part of the school itself - not seperated as at most schools. The rural placement of both schools has its benefits as well as it’s negatives. The semester offerings of each schools has it’s pros and cons as well.</p>

<p>I would really like to know your ‘‘personal’’ experience with W&L - as you seem to have ‘‘personal’’ experience with Dartmouth. Have any of you actually walked the walk at W&L?? Do you really KNOW what the school is all about?? or do your comments and knowledge come strictly from stats reports and overblown articles/rankings - ie -W&L is ranked quite well BTW… The diversity argument is a personal one - for WW to consider - you make it sound as tho it is the top priority for consideration - to each his own - but it may not be the biggest consideration for WW’s decision - stop shoving it down his throat. Do you have actual personal experience at W&L to back up your theories??? I would certainly hope so - tho doubt it.</p>

<p>WW has the unique opportunity to consider some wonderful choices - I am sure he will be making the best one for him - I am sure he knows what my own first choice would be - but it is not mine to decide.</p>

<p>JeepMOM
the parent of a W&L alum!!!</p>

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<p>Quoting Curmudgeon:</p>

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<p>In this case, I meant academically better. W&L’s median SATs are lower than those of Swats, Harvard and Dartmouth. The median SATs give a sense of where one would fit in academically. A student body that is known as party-loving and has somewhat lower SATs should be a factor in selecting which college to attend since students learn as much from other students as they do from profs.
As for WW ruling out Harvard on grounds of competitiveness, I don’t know that it is more competitive than any other place. An MIT student said that MIT students are more competitive because they are all majoring in related fields, so they compare themselves to one another. Harvard students, however, according to him, major in a variety of different fields, so there are always bound to be students who are better than you in some areas and worse than you in others. Yet another MIT student mentioned how much he valued the ease with which impromptu study groups form because students are taking the same courses and how supportive they are of one another. So competitiveness may be in the eye of the beholder. If that is the only issue WW has with Harvard, he might want to reconsider if Harvard comes through with the most generous offer. If he is concerned with Harvard’s size and location, then that would be a totally different story. But a Boston Globe article today reports that a sizable proportion of Harvard students are dissatisfied with their experience, so I should not push Harvard! :)</p>

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<p>InterestedDad: I’m really surprised… your posts are normally excellent, thoughtful, and rational. This thread, though, is not among those.</p>

<p>My point about the costs of attending various functions was just to demonstrate that, at college, there are a bunch of hidden costs. I know W&L alums who were not part of the frat scene and still LOVED it. Most everything else on campus is free. It is, IMNSVHO, ridiculous to point to fraternity dues and use that against my point. Relevant, perhaps, but no one is obligated to join a fraternity. The Dartmouth frat scene is still pretty large (those numbers you cite have dropped from a few years ago) and dominates in terms of weekend activities. However, my point remains: a student at W&L does not have to pay to attend open mic nights, dances (except for a formal), a cappella shows, dances, theatrical performances, etc. That is actually a big part of life at the school. </p>

<p>Even with frat dues, W&L is still less than Dartmouth. </p>

<p>I’ve never heard the “n” word used here… and (again, IMNSVHO) it is patently unfair to judge a school based on one or two individuals, especially those who attended in a different era.</p>

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<p>ariesathena - and I thank you for your humble support lol!!!</p>

<p>I also know several recent alums who BTW are working right along side - or sitting right along side in grad school - and in a couple of cases standing in front of or over the/some recent Dartmouth alums!!! Interesting to say the least.</p>

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<p>Willywonka,</p>

<p>I have personal experience with W&L, Dartmouth, and Colby. I am a graduate of one of those schools. Thanks to a generous amount of financial aid I was able to attend. Even thought my family circumstances were not as fortunate as some of my classmates I never felt out of place. This is because I make it a habit not to compare my circumstances to that of others, and my classmates were warm and welcoming.</p>

<p>If you believe in yourself and your capabilities you will be comfortable at any of the above schools. If you have an inferiority complex and are envious of what others have then any elite school will be a problem because they tend to attract money. Just check out their endowments.</p>

<p>So I would say that Interesteddad is out of line in his comments. From reading your postings and your stats you have got the stuff to make it anywhere. Both Washington and Lee and Dartmouth are great schools. Go to the one that you like best.</p>

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<p>I’m judging a school based on what it is today. The make-up of its student body, the make-up of its social scene, the reputation of the school in guidebooks and as it is viewed by its own students, and the flavor of the school that comes across in its own student newspaper. </p>

<p>According to the Princeton Review folk, students rate W&L as:</p>

<h1>6 in “Homogenous Student Population”</h1>

<h1>3 in “Little Race/Class Interaction”</h1>

<h1>2 in “Party School”</h1>

<h1>1 in “Lots of Beer”</h1>

<h1>1 in “Lots of Liquor”</h1>

<p>Here’s a link to a student newspaper article about a W&L gentleman’s Nazi costume complete with swastika:</p>

<p><a href=“Voxytunes | Current Music, Videos and Entertainment”>Voxytunes | Current Music, Videos and Entertainment;

<p>Or this one on minority students:</p>

<p><a href=“Voxytunes | Current Music, Videos and Entertainment”>Voxytunes | Current Music, Videos and Entertainment;

<p>“A quick anecdote: recently, at an Advisory Board meeting, a student stood up (in front of minority students) and commented on the future of W&L. This student stated that by allowing minority students to attend W&L that the university is lowering its standards and allowing the honor system to be destroyed. That may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How on earth is a minority student going to feel comfortable at this school when his/her fellow students are saying this, and saying this in front of them!?”</p>

<p>It is very hard to argue the numbers: 88% white, 71% not qualifying for a dime of financial aid, and 75% fraternity membership. Those numbers are off the chart in any category. If I were not white, weathy, and eager to go through W&L’s fraternity hazing, I would have to question my “fit” with the campus culture.</p>

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<p>ha ha, so true</p>

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<p>I’dad, Since we are talking meaningless statistics,dubious sources and unrepresentative samples here, check out the official decisions thread on the W+L board. Over 40% of the students accepted to W+L who gave a race or ethnicity were minority, Also interesting to me was the geographic distribution-less than 1/2 were from the south with a fairly significant N’Eastern contingent.</p>

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<p>

Should we all do that? Judge all the schools that WW is looking at using that methodology? I don’t know how accurate that would be . </p>

<p>I would much prefer a 3-4 day campus visit and some personal one on one time with the principals involved. I’ve learned that sometimes my view of campus life after independent investigation and that represented by the modalities employed by you, above, are wildly divergent.</p>

<p>For example picking out one story from a school paper (even one where a student is complaining in a student vehicle about a lack of sensitivity, not supporting it) can lead someone to believe that that is representative of a school, though I assume that you didn’t intend anyone draw a negative picture of W+L from the one article quoted because I am sure you recognize the unfairness of that approach. People could draw an improper conclusion about , let’s pick one of the other schools mentioned-I won’t give it’s name because I am merely making a point about your methodology (not trying to run down another school with “good” academics).

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<p>I have redacted the article because I have no interest in Rove type “Swift-Boat” attacks. I know that the school should not be judged by random acts portrayed as prevailing student opinion. If the lack of respect for dorm-mates, the un-heeded complaints, or the dorm room party scene was as prevalent as portrayed here-I think all of us would have serious doubts about our children attending, but I don’t think that this article convinces me that that is the case. I would want to have D visit and see for herself while continuing to look at other info sources. I would hope that WW and all parents and students would do the same. You never know when someone has an agenda.</p>

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<p>ID,</p>

<p>What is wrong with fraternities? I am a minority born in another country who was a member of a fraternity at an “elite” college. The facts are, that “elite” colleges have money and attract money. </p>

<p>My best friends continue to be my college brothers. To generalize about fraternities on a given campus is absurd. To quote some book is even more absurd. To quote a statement out of a student newspaper without giving the school’s position is disengenuous. You are insinuating that a liberal arts college promotes racisim. Perhaps you are the one who ought to look in the mirror.</p>

<p>Get over the victim bit. I know several faculty members who teach at an Ivy League school who espouse the same BS you are espousing. You wouldn’t happen to live in Cambridge, MA?</p>

<p>By the way at my sons school in the Northeast more kids than ever will be attending southern schools. The reasons seem to be great and improving schools, cost, the weather, a more middle of the road view of the world, and job opportunities.</p>

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<p>Read my whole quote. Note that student newspaper articles are the last in a list of items and can serve to support or contradict the guidebook and student characterizations.</p>

<p>For example, the big Swarthmore pot bust netting 2 ounces of refer and a couple of kids with open beers sitting around a dorm room on a Saturday night does both. It contradicts the guidebook impression that there is no “partying”. But, of course, anyone who reads the student newspaper already knows that. It does reinforce the image of the student body as being nerdy, as least in the case of the freshman girl snitch. I suppose that it also undermines the Quaker image of pacifism as the the anger on campus at this girl is palpable. </p>

<p>Anyway, I think reading the student newspaper is a terrific way to get another snapshot of a college’s personality.</p>

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<p>Curm,</p>

<p>Just goes to show that even “perfect” schools have imperfect people. No school is nirvana, because there will always be something wrong if you look for it.</p>

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<p>Lots of the posts seem bent on doing either one of two things: 1) denying the realities of W&L, or 2) chalking what goes on there up to imperfect people.</p>

<p>Why can’t folks just accept the fact that W&L is the way it is because the institution LIKES being that way? And that students choose to go there because of it? The school CHOOSES to be an academically fine institution. The school CHOOSES to have a strong commitment to fraternities. The school CHOOSES not to be particularly diverse, either racially or economically. The school CHOOSES to have a very, very loose attitude toward hard drinking and partying. </p>

<p>(All of these, by the way, are true of Dartmouth as well, but to a lesser extent.)</p>

<p>W&L could choose to make other other choices. They have the money to do so if they wanted to. They’ve made a decision that they like being what they are. It is not a matter of imperfect people (hey, who’s perfect?), and there shouldn’t be an reason to ignore W&L’s statistical reality, when they themselves actually embrace it.</p>

<p>Obviously, there are many students who go to W&L because they LIKE what it is they see. Why should anyone have a problem with that? It is their money.</p>

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<p>Turbolaser:</p>

<p>This is why fraternities are bad. This single incident from today’s paper defines the behavior of every member of every fraternity at every campus.</p>

<p>“SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters) – A California university, once ranked by Playboy magazine as the top U.S. party school, is probing a fraternity for a party where a hard-core sex film was made, a school spokesman said on Monday.”</p>

<p>Therefore, every fraternity is bad because everyone in a fraternity is a potential porn star. :)</p>

<p>OMG, my son is not only at a southern school, comtemplating joining a fraternity, but just mentioned something about continuing his interest in acting…</p>

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<p>Exactly. I know that my daughter’s school and your daughter’s school are what they are because that’s the way they WANT to be. Neither school is the way it is by accident. Conscious institutional choices, piled on top of each other for a century or more, have made the schools what they want to be.</p>

<p>Both of our D’s schools would be horrible places for some kids, so-so places for some kids, and great places for other kids. As long as the kids have the information about what the school “likes to be” and chooses to attend, then a good decision has been made. The same good decision can be (and is) made to attend W&L. That’s the beauty of informed self-selection. </p>

<p>I think the role of a parent is to make sure that the kid is making an informed decision; that both the positives and the negatives are fully considered, especially on the big picture items. For example, we had many conversations in our house about the negatives of my D’s college culture and whether or not she was sure she was OK with those before dropping the application in the mail. In our case, I think my daughter got a “fair and balanced” airing of what the school “likes to be” because there were characteristics that I viewed as a negative and my wife viewed as a positive! [As usual, my wife turned out to be right…]</p>

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<p>I think you’ve got it now. I don’t know where your daughter goes to school, but I know where Mini’s goes. What if a parent wrote a lengthy post saying no one should go there because there are lots of lesbians and we all know how awful that is? The fact is that people are attracted to schools where they have a comfort level and W & L is popular for a reason, even if you would not choose to go.</p>