@SeniorStruggling – while you have gone through recruiting process this year, please know that there are many parents here who have had multiple of their own children go through the process in various sports and at various levels. That breadth of experience matters, so a little respect would go a long way.
I’ve just seen many kids who get burned out since they were forced to play a sport when they were young. I just think it is best that nothing should be forced.
I appreciate all the replies. Please remember that things I post are outlines of who these kids are and just my impressions. NO ONE will be forcing these kids into any sports they do not want to do. PLEASE stop assuming these parents are trying to push something on the kids. If they quit after an intro lesson or a month that is ok. Everyone realizes that the girls cannot just pick up a Lax stick or golf club and instantly get into Princeton. I and they get the point that most people do not get recruited and that doing activities to build resumes is counterproductive.
I do like the advice about the job of parents is not always to let kids quit but to encourage them to persevere but honestly only if the kid has progressed in a sport or instrument. As the parent of the kid who was picked last for certain sports I can tell you that sometimes quitting is the best move and at a certain point it is damaging to keep the kid in that environment if they are not improving. As will the mother of the flute player with asthma!
GREAT link @arwarw, exactly what they were looking for. Looks like rowing, fencing and equestrian have the most favorable statistics and no one is buying the kids a horse! I was actually shocked at the rowing stats, I am sure there is more behind the numbers and there cannot literally be 2X as many college rowers as HS. Do they import them like in squash, where do they come from? Is there more to this numbers story? Surprised archery was so bad, would have thought the opposite.
Looks like girls golf is a myth. They are not looking for money, just a tip or perhaps the d band mentioned to get into Top 30 schools which their kids, if they continue on the same path will be academically qualified for anyway. Any other suggestions of other sports not listed? I know squash for girls is not an option any more due to the internationals.
Would any of their physical charcteristics be a disadvantage for rowing or fencing or other sports not listed? I thought you had to be tall, light and strong to row? Their physical descriptions are the opposite of that, boys average height, stocky and very stocky will probably be VERY strong as adults, good hand eye coordination but slow runners and somewhat stiff, and girls short (one probably will be about 5’2 the other 5’5 if they are lucky) but medium builds and probably stronger than average, average runners and good hand eye coordination, average flexibility, all are very cerebral, given they are already 10, what sports would they have a shot at if they started now? Interesting that our local rowing club does not even take them before age 12.
I liked the point about meeting the coach’s mental picture of what they want in a player. BTW, I read online that the reason Michael Jordan did not make the varsity basketball team in high school as a sophomore was he was too short!
Not worried about a sport taking away from them doing science research, I looked at the time commitment for our local rowing club, it is the same amount of time they would have spent on a high school volleyball or baseball team. As for team sports being a great EC, sure it is but no better than chess or key club if you are not recruitable. One of the families just went through the process with an older sibling, top 1% of scores, great ECs, played varsity sports for all 4 years, no chance or interest in being recruited (small school, no cuts) wasn’t that good, only to realize at the end of 4 years that this kid was faster than anyone else in the school! At that point it was too late to look into whether track and field would be a good sport for him!
@Midwestmomofboys I have been around it my whole life. It is not a year of recruiting either. For me it was 4, I started being recruited the day I got into high school.
People here aren’t understanding that at d3 coaches have a couple automatic in’s(within reason) but also hand over a list to admissions of kids they want.
Also at d3 coaches are not allowed to help in FA. This is the whole reason they are d3. A coach helping in fa is going to be slapped with heavy recruiting violations and risks being shut down from competing and recruiting for at least 1 year.
Lastly, coaches do have ridiculous pull. I know a coach that overturned a rejection letter because the admissions office said it wasn’t worth giving the kid 50k worth of financial aid grants. The kid did not go to the school, but he was given an acceptance letter and FA award that the school deemed worthy.
This is at a top 10 school too, I just think it’s funny that parents don’t understand how much pull some coaches have.
Just to be clear – a tip, at NESCAC, is used for a recruited athlete. So if parents are looking for a tip, it sounds like the parents are looking at recruiting in order to get the nod in the super-selective admissions process. D band is the weakest tier of applicants, so a kid who is a moderate athlete with D band stats is not getting any kind of bump. Finally, there may be sports at some schools where coaches don’t really get many tips and slots, depending on the size of the roster and the school’s priorities. I’m not personally familiar with rowing recruiting, but it could be that, because rowing is a sport which many kids don’t have access to because of their local geography, that those coaches don’t get much in admissions at NESCACs. I recall at one NESCAC, we were told that rowing was basically open to newcomers because there wasn’t much of a recruiting process. There are several threads on this Athletics board about rowing, so I would suggest spending some time reading through those. Rowing and fencing seem to be sports which kids can take up later and develop into, though both have competitive high school-aged events which will show how strong a competitor a kid is. Bottom line, recruited athletes are exceptional performers who are driven to continue to compete in college, they are not average.
The real task for these parents to engage with is to understand that, upper middle class white kids from the east coast are not assured of replicating their parents’ educational trajectory.
Not a recruited sport, but if they’re just looking for a sport the kids might enjoy, which might give them a unique experience as essay fodder, what about Olympic style weightlifting? Strong and stocky are good attributes to have there.
@Midwestmomofboys Basically you either have to be realllllllyyyy good for a dband recruit, or you have to have reallly good grades for an a band recruit.
A band tips almost always get in.
@SeekingPam In fencing there are so many variables (timing, speed, endurance, strategy etc…) among the three different weapons (which are really three very different sports) that body type should not hinder them from eventually fencing at a college level if they have good coaching, love the sport and work really hard. I have seen good youth fencers in ALL shapes and sizes.
@SeekingPam A stocky short size would actually also be good for wrestling. Get him into a mma/bjj class and he can get a good base and learn discipline.
Plus he will be shredded at 16, and that will not be knock at his self esteem;)
The best wrestlers in the state started some form of martial arts, usually bjj or krav maga when they were little. It creates a super solid base for the wrestling which is all hand to hand.
@SeniorStruggling I understand that you have completed the process, and I agree, it begins early. That’s wonderful that you have found a school where you are happy and can compete. The point is, the amount of “pull” a coach has varies tremendously and it depends on ED vs. RD. NESCACs have a formal process which can be more transparent, if you understand “coach speak” and ask specifically about tips, slots and bands. At other schools, it can be more challenging to know where a player stands. A coach will almost certainly tell admissions, here are the guys who are my recruits who are applying ED. And if the kid has gone through a pre-read and gotten a positive response, chances are good they will be admitted. But it depends on the school and the sport. At Grinnell, the coach was not going to get any kid in with scores below a certain point, regardless of how much he wanted that player. At Amherst, which had been in the hunt for a national championship in soccer and finally pulled it off, and Kenyon, which is still on the hunt for one, those coaches might be able to get through a kid who would change the trajectory of the team but is not quite as well qualified for admission. The point is, it depends on the school, the coach and the team. There is no one-size-fits all, in soccer or any other recruiting.
@SeekingPam: Given the projected size and build/strength of the girls, I would recommend either foil or saber in terms of fencing weapons. Epee, the weapon with which I am the most familiar, rewards height more than the other two. Of course, there are exceptions but most of the top U16/U20 epee girls I know are at least 5’ 6"…with many in the 5’ 9"-6’ 0" range. With women’s foil, I think of people like Nzingha Prescod (Rio Olympian) who are not that tall and enjoying great success. On the saber side (though I think arwarw might be more familiar, given the Nellya connection), while there are many tall athletes at the college level, I can think of at least one very successful NCAA sabreuse (Lena Johnson) at Columbia who isn’t that tall either.
Some clubs tend to specialize in certain weapons, so if you have a choice in your area, try to go with the one that specializes in the weapon the kids want to pursue. Or try a tri-weapon club to get a feel for all three weapon types before selecting one.
Note my earlier comment about fencing having a lot of losing more most folks — especially in the beginning. Also, competing at higher levels requires a significant investment in time/money/travel…the gear (even the good stuff) is honestly the cheapest part in the long run.
BTW, I do appreciate your comment about how sometimes quitting is the best solution…didn’t take long for us to drop soccer when our younger girl tried it. I think that was a combination of her dislike as well as ours, though.
@seniorstruggling, I admit that I don’t know what happens inside admissions at every school, but at the schools I’m familiar with, coaches generally don’t talk to admissions about the kids they’d like who are not recruits. I suspect at many schools, the relationship between athletics and admissions is cool at best – the latter would probably rather do their job without the complication of keeping team rosters filled and competitive. Nothing delights a coach more than a kid who’s able to get in as a regular admit (i.e., not a recruit) who wants to play and is good enough to do so. The coach gets what he wants without having to call in any chits from admissions. Athletics act in that case more like an EC.
Also, from our experience, SOME schools pass on their list of admitted students to coaches so that they can THEN see if there’s anyone in that group they’d like to talk to. (Your wonderful school, btw, appears to be one of these.) Others expect admits to reach out to the coach to let them know that they’ve been admitted and to express interest, in which case, what happens depends on how many returning players they have, who they’ve recruited, etc.
But yes, to agree with everyone else here, expecting athletics to be the ticket into the school of your choice, unlikely. If you’re really good, it may help you SOMEWHERE but that’s not really the point. The lessons learned from working at something, often with teammates, are valuable and valued. As would be playing in the band, being on the debate team, working on the newspaper…
@Midwestmomofboys , DS’ meeting with Kenyon coach remains one of the most memorable episodes in his college search. Yes, he has that championship in his sights for sure!
@gardenstategal Yup, Kenyon coach meeting made quite an impression on my kid too!
@gardenstategal If you are talking about Earlham, I know that admissions is talking to coaches all the time. They have standards, which is why the football team is rough. However I know that there was no way in h3ll I could have gotten in without the help.
Coaches stay out of FA because they can’t talk to them at risk of FA decisions, but they support recruits. There are tips, knods, and clear statements.
I did not get into Kenyon, I know that it was the longest shot on earth. That is how I know you have to have some minimums LOL. The coach did however get in front of admissions for me. He did all he could, had I had better grades or taken a couple more sats I would have gotten in.
Coaches don’t have all the pull in the world, but for any school outside of the top 10(bar some exceptions) a 3.5-3.8 and a coaches word will get the student in.
At the top 10 they have minimums, usually 1400 sat and 3.8 gpa. Hard to do, but for athletes who aren’t “d-band” they will usually get in with a simple tip.
@arwarw, maybe in your part of the country all the club fencers go on to compete in college, but not in mine (and my kid fenced in Ro Soblavaro’s club, if that means anything to you). Now… I believe any kid with decent athleticism, committment, and desire to compete at the NCAA level probably could do so from his club. But a lot of the fencers in his club don’t end up fencing in college for various reasons. Some get burned out, some like to practice but not compete, some get injured, etc. And some who fence in college walk on, are not recruited. Just saying that club fencing isn’t a direct path to an admissions tip, either.
I meant to say A and possibly B Band (now that I looked it up and understand what that means!)
The article linked by Senior above http://bowdoinorient.com/article/9151 was very helpful in understanding the process and it does appear that A Bands will get “something” if the coach is interested but will not be counted as a slot.
One quote that I did not understand from the article
Is this financial need or academic need? I thought Bowdoin was need blind (no idea as my kid did not look at it).
Plus the implication is that A Band students will get in
Since even 1500s and top 1% class presidents get rejected routinely from Top 20 schools, I am not sure how the article can say that about A bands unless they are getting admission support of some type.
@SeniorStruggling , that may have been your case. Not ours.
DS met with coaches at most of the schools he visited. Perhaps he wouldn’t make as big a difference to a team as you will. It would seem, based on his academic record and scores (and unwillingness to apply ED) that he did not get (nor need) support through the process. AFTER being accepted, several coaches reached out to him, his current coaches, reviewed tapes, invited him out to play, and let him know whether he had a place on their team. All schools in different conferences. The NESCAC coach, in particular, disclosed that he didn’t have as many tips/slots/whatevers as he needed given how many upperclassmen he was losing. (The same school did the same thing with one of his friends who played a different sport last year.) DS has teammates who have had similar experiences – interest only after being accepted. And he has teammates who have been hotly pursued throughout the admissions process!
You have had your experience, and it’s valuable to others to know what that was as their may be similar. But it’s not the only truth. Other people have had different experiences – different sports, different schools, different admissions profiles.
@gardenstategal I guess that makes sense. I was the top recruit for my sport, though I do know that the coach did not heavily recruit the lower guys.
Sometimes if the sport is in good standing academics wise, the coach will have more pull. Or if they are conference champions/national rank contenders.
For women’s sabre 5’7" 165lb seems to be the ideal - with big, explosive thighs. Look at the current USA Olympic Sabre team. http://www.usfencing.org/news_article/show/276753-u-s-women-s-saber-team-wins-third-straight-senior-world-bronze
Sada J, another great USA fencer was also about that size.
Unlike in foil, In sabre you can score by hitting the wrist and arm which somewhat negates the height/reach advantage.
To equate the weapons to track I would say:
epee - long distance
foil - middle distance
Sabre - sprinters
Lena is an athletic phenom. Up until her senior year in high school she also competed year round in club soccer at an elite club level and could have easily played NCAA soccer instead of fencing.
Having said that, I have seen good youth fencers in all shapes and sizes - chubby, short, skinny, tall - whatever.
Edited to add: It helps to be left-handed!