<p>Maybe they can just put a small warning on your college acceptance letter, similar to the one mandated on a pack of cigarettes: “WARNING: College debt can cause severe hardships in your life, including inability to finance a car, buy a home or cause delays in reproduction.”</p>
<p>Very little of the discussion here has focused on realistic alternatives. Not every kid can major in math or engineering, or can be confident of medical school acceptance. Not every kid can waltz into a full-tuition merit scholarship by dropping down a category or two. If a field has full employment, that doesn’t mean it can handle double or triple the number of entry-level candidates. (And that certainly applies to the military.)</p>
<p>I think it is still the case that people who go to college do significantly better than people who don’t, if not by the margin that applied when many fewer people went to college and there were lots more skilled jobs for those who didn’t. It may be that being capable of succeeding in college, but not going, is a winning economic strategy – but that’s an awfully big gamble for 17 year-olds to make.</p>
<p>I certainly understand how you could get 444 college graduates during the recent recession/depression to complain about their fates, their debt, their majors, and their colleges’ career counseling offices. But what actual, achievable alternatives did they have that would have produced a significantly better outcome?</p>
<p>Serously, “a nationally representative sample of 444 recent college graduates from the class of 2006 through 2011…” And an online effort. I understand we can learn from small, “representative” samples, but this is limited.</p>
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According to Appendix A the sampling error is +/- 5%. So the 37% who regret their major could be 32% to 42%. Any number in this range is non-negligible. The questions in the survey are listed in Appendix B. The easiest way to increase the sample size would be for colleges to survey their recent graduates using these questions. Any takers?</p>
<p>UCBAlumnus has helpfully linked to schools that do survey their graduates and publish the results. When my children are considering colleges I will consider whether they provide statistics about the employment and graduate/professional school admissions of recent graduates.</p>
<p>['quote] It’s not the major so much as it is the person … and other factors that cannot be put in a neat little grid. Personal connections, motivation, area of the country, right place/right time, prior work experience, internships, just plain luck - among other things. I know recently graduated engineers who are unemployed - creative writing majors who landed good jobs at major corporations - smart kids who don’t have “real” jobs - smart kids with fabulous jobs. I just don’t see how what is being suggested is going to help.
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<p>Anecdata only, but I just caught up with three former college acquaintances – all 3 were theater majors. </p>
<p>T spent a few years doing theater in Chicago and decided to go back to school and become a doctor; she is now a pediatrician in New Orleans. </p>
<p>A went to law school and now works in a government capacity but does a lot of work for her in-laws who run a charitable foundation (her father-in-law was harmed in the course of his duties protecting an even higher level government level official who was the target of a shooting; you’d all recognize the name).</p>
<p>D stayed with theater and is a costume designer on Broadway. She doesn’t make a lot but she has earned Tony nominations for costume design.</p>
<p>So, who’s more “successful” and who’s the best predictor of what a theater major should be making?</p>
<p>Anecdotal as well, but we know quite a few humanities kids who have corporate jobs for when they graduate this year: (Soc - Microsoft), (Art - Google), (Literature - Goldman Sachs), (Communications - Amex), (Philosophy - hedge fund). And we know an engineering major who will be touring with his jazz band.</p>
<p>This, to me, is such common sense – but it doesn’t seem to be common sense to the kinds of straight-line, in-the-box-thinkers who think that a career path is just a straight trajectory based solely and fully on the specific facts and skills taught in college.</p>
<p>Bel, I hope you will look for more than “statistics about the employment and graduate/professional school admissions of recent graduates.” I hope you will look at who the most successful (however you define that) actually are, what they did to get to that success- whether it was something that the program, in itself, offered- or handed- them OR the individual kids, their savvy, drive, academic accomplishments and the particular experiences they pursued (research, projects, internships, summer work, etc.) There is no free lunch, no auto-success, just for attending College X and getting its degree.</p>
<p>To be fair, Pizzagirl, all of your stories (and mine, too – one of my best friends from law school is a Northwestern theater grad who is now a big-time entertainment industry lawyer, Malibu mansion and all) arose in a substantially different economic context. We were all talking about this at my last law school reunion – the most any of us paid in cumulative tuition for our bachelor’s degrees and law school was just about equal to the median starting salary of people in our class when they graduated. If you made the same calculation today, the cumulative tuition would be 5 or 6 times the median starting salary of a new law school graduate (and a good number of the ones below the median have $0 starting salaries).</p>
<p>That legitimately makes people want their investments in education to pay off, and it can make them feel very cautious about those investments. The problem, however, is that the data that is being collected doesn’t really tell anyone what they need to know in making educational choices. And that’s especially true for the people with the most “need to know” – people who aren’t already plugged-in to networks of high-achieving college graduates.</p>
<p>A propos of theater majors: I recently had a long chat with a friend whose child is a theater tech major at a well-regarded college theater program. My friend is thrilled with the kid’s program, and with the kid’s ability to find paid theater work. There’s no question the kid will be able to earn a living in theater after graduation (but there will be no college debt to speak of). One of the kid’s parents, by the way, is . . . a professional career counselor. The kid’s older sib dropped a pre-med STEM major for something much mushier, and is now making serious bank in sales in a high-tech industry.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, my assistant’s child is making the Music Theater application rounds. This kid (and/or the parents) WILL have college debt, unfortunately. I worry about all of them. The kid is an only child, and the parents are in love with the kid’s talent and glamour, understandably.</p>
<p>Here’s another way to think about this issue. Let’s assume you could look into the future and determine, without question, that your kid will end up with a job/ career that he or she could have technically done without a college degree, say:</p>
<p>-- managing a retail store
– general contractor for residential construction
– real estate agent/ salesperson
– florist/ event planner
– owning a yoga studio
– sales rep for commercial furniture company
– custom jewelry designer/ maker
– operator of outdoor adventure tour company
– web designer
– designer of high end stationery
– hair dresser </p>
<p>Let’s further assume that you know your kid will be happy with his/ her work and will make a good-enough living. Wouldn’t you still want your kid to go to college, and to a school that will best lead to your child’s fullest intellectual development? I certainly would – and would be willing to take out loans or cut back on my lifestyle to ensure that my kid has the opportunity to do so.</p>
<p>For those of you who aren’t sure, would it matter if I told you that the college-educated version of your kid in this hypothetical scenario writes poetry in his or her spare time, is up on all of the contemporary artists, has a wonderful group of friends from college and beyond who greatly enrich his/her life? Is in a book club with a lovely group of professionals? Acts in community theater? Has a book review column (unpaid) in the local newspaper? Still corresponds with his/her history advisor and is fondly thanked in the acknowledgement of the advisor’s latest book for helping to clarify an important point? Etc. etc. If the answer us still no b/c of the low ROI, what if your child’s hypothetical college roommates/ friends are generous with the fruits of their labors (villa in Sardinia; Grand Cru burgundies; movie premiere parties; museum galas), and that if you just added up the actual monetary value of these perks from friends, they would greatly increase the actual income of your kid, despite his/her work as a dog trainer/ surfboard shaper? To get really retro/ crass, how would you calculate the value of a high earning spouse that the non- college educated version of your kid never would have met had he/she not gone to HYPS in determining ROI?</p>
<p>I know highly educated folks in each of the categories above who would be shocked and offended to learn that some think that their educations were not worthwhile because their degrees didn’t result in an engineering job.</p>
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<p>To most American families, spending on a college education that does not yield an improvement in job prospects is an unaffordable luxury. While this may be a heretical thought to most people posting here, it is reality for most American families, who do not think of six figure household incomes as “middle income”, or have two Cadillacs, a Mustang, a Chevrolet pickup, and a Q7 in the garage.</p>
<p>There are jobs you can technically get without a college degree and then there’s reality. Yes, you can manage your local dress shop without a college degree. But the vast majority of people in retail management at the large chains (at least in the US- one can still gain entry to these programs in Europe without a BA) go to people with a college degree. And advancement in these companies without a degree is very hard. Try getting a managerial job in supply chain at Target or an executive level job in finance or store operations at Macy’s or a “foot on the ladder job” at Staples with just a high school diploma. Yes- it can be done so don’t spam me with stories about your cousin who is CFO at Petsmart or head of store operations at Bloomingdales with only a HS education. It can be done- but it is not likely. The retailers who still operate management training programs primarily recruit at the university level.</p>
<p>So the problem is that right now, a college diploma is still the door opener for many (not all) jobs with significant advancement opportunities in many (not all) sectors of our economy. Yes, there are mommy trackers and downshifters who leave a corporate job to go manage a flower shop or get a real estate license. And if you have a HS kid who is excited about real estate and can get someone to sponsor him/her for a license at age 18, I wouldn’t tell that kid s/he has to go to college.</p>
<p>But the reality is that even your real estate junkie teenager may find opportunities limited down the road without a degree. Which is fine- that’s what the thousands of programs for adult students are for.</p>
<p>UCB-- I don’t disagree with you. Spending on a college education that does not yield an improvement in job prospects is quite problematic for the vast majority of families. But for that hapless family with the unemployed marine biologist daughter from a few pages back- you have to ask- not even a Google search? Nobody in the family thought to ask career services at the college, “how many marine biology jobs are now filled by graduates of your school and how many of those graduates got a masters or higher degree from a different university after they left here?” The D never popped in on a marine biology professor during office hours to say, “Hey, when I leave here I need to be employable. Either in marine biology or something related. Tell me what I should be doing to facilitate that”.</p>
<p>I don’t know that MANDATING statistical data gathering helps these families- if the questions don’t get asked, the answers don’t get revealed.</p>
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<p>I would, too. Having said that, a college degree could still help in most of the jobs listed above. Everyone on CC seems to dis retail, but there are some awfully good retail management jobs out there, and yes, they do involve spending time “on the floor,” but so what? It’s no more or less noble than any other job. And blossom is right - try getting into a management training program at a major dept store without a college degree. Ain’t gonna happen.</p>
<p>[New</a> pressure on colleges to disclose grads’ earnings | Hechinger Report | JANUARY 16, 2013](<a href=“http://hechingerreport.org/content/new-pressure-on-colleges-to-disclose-grads-earnings_10885/]New”>http://hechingerreport.org/content/new-pressure-on-colleges-to-disclose-grads-earnings_10885/)</p>
<p>The article says data on earnings by school and major is available in Arkansas, Tennessee and Virginia, Florida, and Washington and is coming for Colorado, Nevada and Texas.</p>
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<p>In other words, SISO:</p>
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<p>Here are links to the data mentioned earlier for a few of the states.</p>
<p>[ESM</a> Home - Arkansas](<a href=“http://esm.collegemeasures.org/esm/arkansas/default.aspx]ESM”>http://esm.collegemeasures.org/esm/arkansas/default.aspx)</p>
<p>[ESM</a> Home - Tennessee](<a href=“http://esm.collegemeasures.org/esm/Tennessee/default.aspx]ESM”>http://esm.collegemeasures.org/esm/Tennessee/default.aspx)</p>
<p>[ESM</a> Home - Virginia](<a href=“http://esm.collegemeasures.org/esm/Virginia/default.aspx]ESM”>http://esm.collegemeasures.org/esm/Virginia/default.aspx)</p>
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<p>Hmmm. Let’s use a little economic thinking here. If “everyone” flocks to Major X because major X grads make more than major Y, what happens to the supply and what happens to wages? The world can’t be made up of 100% health-professionals or computer science folks or whatever the hot major is.</p>
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<p>This is an argument for policymakers to not push everyone to study X (through differential tuition, for example, which has been proposed in one state), but an individual choosing to study X will not meaningfully affect the job prospects in X. Maybe your concern is that publicizing data on earnings by major would cause a rush towards supposedly lucrative majors.</p>
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<p>It’s not a “concern” of mine, as I had a double major that was reasonably attractive to employers (econ and math) and my entry-level salary upon graduation was the highest non-engineer salary at my college that year. So I don’t know why you think it would be a “concern” of mine; can you explain?</p>
<p>It’s certainly wise to consider one’s employability, but nothing’s more pathetic than the parent who forces a kid who really hates X to study it / major in it / get a job in it. It reflects a fearful, scaredy-cat view of the world.</p>
<p>Beliavsky- yes, that’s right. Let’s publish a study which shows the earnings for cardiologists and neurologists and plastic surgeons since clearly most folks in America are too dumb to know that these are high paying professions. And that publishing this data will cause a wave when all the kids in America studying “Sports Management” and “Leisure Studies” recklessly head off to med school.</p>
<p>Jeez.</p>