@417WHB - no argument from me that parents don’t intentionally hurt their kids.
I put the blame on pharma. And on a culture that has little tolerance for kids who learn differently/are disruptive/need additional support. And put immense pressure on families re a warped idea of success.
Why are high stakes tests like the ACT and SAT timed, anyway? What is the merit in turning them into a race against time? Our state-wide standardized tests are untimed. They try to measure what kids understand or have mastered, not how fast kids can fill out bubbles. Having extra time doesn’t magically help you know the answer to a question. It just gives you time to think.
^^There are tests in which you show what you know. There are tests in which you show what you can do in as certain amount of time. To me, those are testing 2 different things.
Personally, I can understand why applicants to a demanding engineering program need to demonstrate an ability to perform certain tasks quickly. They will not be able to follow along in class or do their work at certain schools without that ability. It doesn’t mean they aren’t smart, it doesn’t mean they can’t learn, and it doesn’t mean they won’t make some breakthrough discovery. But it may mean they will struggle with that particular academic program.
ADHD diagnoses are tricky for a lot of reasons. Management of it involves more than meds. And realistically, once a person leaves an academic environment, there are few to no accommodations-- just picking the right place for how you function and setting yourself up to be successful. I think most of us struggle with that challenge, with or without a diagnosis.
Did you know that many high level Mathematicians have slow processing speed?
https://www.youcubed.org/resource/depth-not-speed/
If you are an ER doc, speed is critical. For most other jobs? Taking a little bit longer makes not an iota of difference.
Just to add to the comment above - many kids with anxiety disorders also have slow processing speed (for a variety of reasons). Also, if you have obsessive and perfectionistic tendencies (like many of us demonstrate on CC), your processing speed can be impacted.
Nobody is suggesting that processing speed equals intelligence. But it may make it difficult to thrive in certain environments. And it may not make one iota of difference in others. And it may even be helpful in some.
I think that if a school has itself set up to be in the first category, though, it may be wise to consider it.
And yes, @Golfgr8 , you are so right – anxiety can impact processing speed. And ADHD can create anxiety. This is all part and parcel of what I meant by ADHD being tricky to diagnose and manage.
So many schools are TO now that this part of it doesn’t have to be stressful for a kid who struggles with testing. But if you have ADHD, you need a plan that will work for you in every way.
We are waaaay off topic, but I would be interested in a thread re: standardized testing. I understand that schools are going test optional. But I don’t know what to think about it.
Being able to perform under pressure is important, and I disagree that it doesn’t make an iota of difference in most jobs. I am a desk jockey who bills my time in six minute increments. You bet I need to keep my eye in the clock as I go. And I have deadlines that explode if not met. Another example: Restaurant employees have to get dishes plated and served within a tight window, while doing 3 other things at the same time. UPS drivers are on a very tight schedule. Doctors have 15 minutes with a patient, and have to chart, too. Fewer people can luxuriate in a deadline-free job than ever before.
I am not saying timed tests are the most important element of an application, but they do test something. Other parts of the application (grades) incorporate non-timed elements. Sure there are problems with disparate access to test prep bc of the wealth gap. But I don’t think the fix is to take the time element away.
@CaliMex - re: your cite to Jo Boaler, she gets a lot of attention and praise, but having followed her for a while I take issue with some of what she says. I am all in that we can do more to encourage kids who don’t think they can do math. But I think she is dead wrong that there is no such thing as a math brain. Public schools (imo) have glommed on to her rationale to decimate gifted and talented education. I have seen it first hand, and it is not good in the long (or short) run.
But I do think her ideas about revamping math curriculum to include data analytics are really thought provoking. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-23/math-high-school-algebra-data-statistics%3f_amp=true
Just wanted to say I agree with this so much!!! One of the reasons my kids were so disappointed with middle school was this. The concept that everyone can do honors math and we shouldn’t separate out the kids who could and should go much faster really hampered their math education. They are still feeling the repercussions of that in BS today. My daughter was kept out of advanced science classes because she wasn’t advanced enough in math - 100% because her middle school refused to accelerate kids who showed ability. My son had to fight for a spot in honors and one of the reasons was that they thought his middle school math was weak.
I haven’t read/followed any of the resources cited above, but based solely on one kid’s anecdotal experience, I think there are more factors than can/can’t do math, math brain, and the like. DS is one of those kids who has always felt that he “can’t” do math. Throw in slow processing and ADHD (difficulty focusing on things that are hard and/or uninteresting to him), and he’s pretty disastrous in math classes. But, first tri his lowest grade was Algebra II and highest grade was physics. Go figure. Physics makes sense to him, and he CAN do math when there’s an application to it. He talks about engineering, but of course he won’t be able to major in anything STEM because he will struggle (and then some) with the math components. But that being said, he isn’t good at math, needs extra time and repetition, and doesn’t belong in a. class with kids who can move a lot faster.
There’s also an interesting discussion of math capability in Outliers, if anyone has read it.
@one1ofeach - Yup. Totally our experience. there is a direct line between Jo Boaler and my kid fleeing the public schools. He was forced to sign up for her emails and watch videos. She was quoted regularly by the worst of his math teachers. If you mention her by name to him (which a bs teacher did recently), he will jump out of his skin. Upside: I think he may want to become a math teacher just to counteract what is happening to math education in our schools. He was also thankfully motivated to learn geometry on his own - otherwise he would never have been put in the math/science track he is now.
It is also a problem with writing, too btw. Kiddo was rightfully kept out of advanced English (his writing was years behind his in-class abilities) when he hit bs. Thank God the school was committed to working with him. He has mostly caught up.
And he is in a “great” school district. The notion that teachers can and should teach to the entire spectrum of kids in a single classroom of 25+ kids is unfair to teachers and harming kids on either end of the aptitude curve. Probably those in the middle, too.
I get all soap box-y on this issue. All of our public school kids deserve better. Not only that, our country needs our public schools to do better. Kiddo was blessed with an opportunity to get better education, but it shouldn’t be so exclusive or expensive.
Interesting. ARound here, it is Lick Wilmerding (google it. Most selective private school in SF) that makes kids do the Boaler course online.
FWIW, I have a friend with a PhD in Electrical Engineering who has slow processing speed and still uses her fingers to calculate. Apparently, there were several students with slow processing speed in the Math PhD program at her top-ranked university, too. So no, I don’t believe that mathematical ability can be determined by speed of calculation.
So much great info in these posts on several topics! @asalomark, I think some schools do a better job than others of seeing themselves as works in progress. I gravitate to those sorts of schools because vigorous, frequent and honest institutional self-reflection makes it harder for unhealthy behaviors to survive.
Schools that revel in century-old traditions uncoupled from self-awareness and evolution - and there are many quite famous examples - have always seemed to me to offer too many dark spaces for bad habits or bad people. Of course, this is totally unscientific, but you can certainly ask schools what they do to examine themselves, and are those conversations open and visible to the community or held closely among a few administrators.
^ Super good point. There is a fine line between willingness to change and trendiness, though. Most bs’s we looked at seriously do a pretty good job of a slow, deliberative process for any major changes – which I admire. They also seem to check in a lot with their peers and learn from each other.
I am most interested right now in seeing how the schools deal with the issue of stress and mental health that is now being discussed. Rigor and damaging stress don’t have to go hand in hand. But “sink or swim” is baked into many bs’s approach. Tradition v data is always an interesting tug of war. To mix my summer camp metaphors. 
@CaliMex – yeah, I agree that processing time doesn’t have to correlate with “math brain” or “engineering brain.” In advanced math, very little has to do with calculating numbers, let alone doing it quickly. But that doesn’t mean processing time isn’t relevant at all to success in life or school.
I think the disconnect with the Boaler message and how it is applied is that people looking to cut budgets hear “we don’t need to spend additional money on the accelerated kids” instead of “we need to spend more money on ALL kids”. The result is less money is spent on all kids.
IMO certain accelerated kids are special ed kids in their own way, and need to be treated as such. Mainstreaming that minority flat out doesn’t work. This mainstreaming v tracking thing is a swinging pendulum. Right now we are way on the side of mainstreaming, but I think a lot of that is driven by budgetary necessity, not pedagogy.
It’s a tough issue, to be sure @CateCAParent , especially given the shortage of funding. Kids who are really struggling in school due to disabilities aren’t getting the supports they need, either. Time to reform Prop 13.
But we digress.