boring classes at top schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>I was talking with my son who said a couple of his classes are somewhat boring. This brought me a concern and a question. My concern is more toward my son who may skip classes if it gets worse, and a question is on the quality of top college/university classes in a rather general context.</p>

<p>I think one reason in my son’s case is because it is kind of repeating his AP course. The school is not granting the credits for his AP course (although he got 5), and this is a required course for his intended major. I told him that there would be always something to learn and he won’t be doing much more important things while he skips the classes.
I don’t like my son to build up a habit of missing classes, and I’d like to have some compelling arguments to persuade those who miss classes.<br>
Those who miss classes say that going to a class is simply a waste of their time and they can learn on their own. It may work in some circumstances, perhaps more often in math/science courses, but I think the attendance is more crucial in humanities and social science courses.<br>
Do you have any advice in dealing with somewhat boring classes and to keep interests?</p>

<p>Second question is rather in a general context. When a student feels bored in class, it could be the student’s attitude what needs to be changed. But it is also true that the course can be indeed boring. A top rate researcher at a top rate school is not necessarily a great teacher. Also, many courses are in a huge auditorium lecture format, which often contributes to a high non-attendance rate. As an example, I was surprised when I heard that an intro psy course at an IVY college is a large auditorium class with more than 1000 students. I also heard that some intro level required math courses experience attendance rates as low as 50-60%.
I am interested in knowing more about the quality of classes at top rate colleges/universities, and would like to hear what other parents on this board have experienced and think.</p>

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<p>Mozart Mom: This is an interesting topic and I would also like to know other’s thoughts. For example, how would you rate the quality of classes at a top ten public U when compared to a HYP?</p>

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<p>There will be some boring classes everywhere. Certainly, some schools will do better overall than others, but you are going to get a mixed bag no matter where you are (and whether a student thinks that the material, as opposed to the teaching style, is exciting or boring will vary by student anyway).</p>

<p>These are not necessarily the large classes. One of my most engaging classes was my intro psych class, which had ~300 students. The lecturer was absolutely wonderful. We gave him a standing ovation on the last day of class.</p>

<p>One reason not to miss class is that sometimes the instructor works sample problems that are similar to ones that will appear on the homework or on exams. </p>

<p>If your S (or anyone else in that situation) is really bored, he can bring the textbook, or his favorite source material on that particular subject, to class, and read the relevant parts of the book when his eyes start to glaze over.</p>

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<p>I almost hate to add this comment, but if he’s really that bored and that sure that he knows the material, would it really be such a bad thing if he skipped classes? As long as there is not an attendance requirement or a chance that he would miss important information about assignments, he should be able to make his own decisions on how best to use his time. That’s a skill everyone needs to develop. I’m not sure I agree that it is easier to work alone in math/science classes. It really depends on the class. I rarely (serious illness only) skipped my technical classes - the homework would have been impossible without the information from the lectures.</p>

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<p>Sometimes you get lucky, and the introductory courses are taught by professors who really enjoy teaching that kind of course. Usually, everyone on campus knows those professors, and those classes are overflowing. But in many cases, the introductory courses are taught by professors who hate teaching that kind of class, but are forced to by their department. Their turn to take out the trash. </p>

<p>It probably would be better for introductory courses to be taught by lesser-lights, people who make their profession introducing elementary material, but then students/parents would feel like they aren’t getting their $40K per year’s worth, especially since in a lot of majors the first two years are taken up with such classes.</p>

<p>The problem with skipping classes is you miss the emphasis of the professor, which is usually reflected on the exams. If the kid really knows the material cold, missing a few classes won’t matter, but in most cases attending classes is very helpful for achieving a good grade.</p>

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<p>Boring classes? Sure! Micro! Starts with about 200 students and later gets no more than 25 0r 30 until the week before the exam. Most students do well, though.</p>

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<p>My D, at an Ivy, took an Intro Psych course last fall and it was indeed a huge lecture course…because the professor is so superb, and everyone wants to take it. So far, in three semesters there, and with a few large lecture courses (but no others as large as that one) she hasn’t been bored at all.</p>

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<p>My two cheap cents as a professor. </p>

<p>First the quality of the class experience from unis with different rankings is completely overrated. Going to a top 10 or top whatever doesn’t in any way guarantee class size, or who is placed at the front of the room, or the pizzazz or status of the instructor. Not to mention there is often HUGE variability within many schools/majors/levels. It pays to find out what a given major at a given school will likely experience, and choose based on your priorities (but to assume desired qualities in the classroom because a school is highly ranked on someone’s list is not the way to go). To give an example: as a PhD student at a high ranked school, I was given my own graduate classes to teach (we all were and PhD students there now still are)- and this school and master’s program was and continues to be rated typically #1-3 in Business Week. </p>

<p>As for your son, he’s either bored because it really is repetitious, or for other reasons. If the former, I’d tell my child to most definitely consider strategically skipping classes in that course. This isn’t highschool. If participation matters, usually the prof has a reason why and your son can and should find out (either by reading the syllabus, talking to others who have taken the course with this prof, talking to the prof. directly, or experimenting and see how it goes). </p>

<p>Attendence in a course may or may not a) impact his grade b) impact the depth, retention of, or ability to later use, the material covered c) impact his growth in softer but sometimes important areas such case analysis, critical thinking, participation in class discussion d) impact his development of relationships with classmates in the same major or his relationship with a professor in his area. No easy answer because it depends on a lot of things (e.g. the student, curriculum, class size, major, professor, pedagogy etc. etc.).</p>

<p>Your son should use what he figures out above to decide if he’s better off sitting in the class or using that time for more constructive pursuits. And part of the decision depends on his goals. All actions at uni should not just (or necessarily be) about getting the ‘highest GPA’. How much and what you are learning in general, what you are experiencing, and how you are developing as a person through those experiences is hopefully important too (sometimes moreso or in conflict with getting the ‘highest grade’). </p>

<p>At a minimum, he should experiment and see what works best for his success and goals at school (however defined). The habit of skipping classes might be a good idea for him in his major at his school. Just like he learned how to learn and be successful in highschool, he may also still learn some additional things about how to be most effective at college. But I see this as a challenge for him to figure out, and part of the college experience, and as his parent you really shouldn’t worry (I know, easy for me to say).</p>

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<p>I’d simply remind my kid that he won’t meet any new girls (or boys if that’s the preference) by cutting class. :wink: </p>

<p>Also: better late than never. My parents first met each other because they were always running in last minute to the enormous lecture hall, so noticed each other.</p>

<p>Before anyone claims he’s “bored” there had better be A’s. </p>

<p>Some profs sound boring in intonation, delivery and so on, but if you listen closely their analysis is quite brilliant. Ask the kid if he feels he’s not learning or isn’t being entertained. Big difference.</p>

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<p>My son is at an Ivy and his freshman year courses were, with just a couple of exceptions, terrible. The quality of teaching was poor, the classes were boring and they were large. The one small writing seminar he took was taught by a TA who was absolutely terrible. My son was so discouraged that he just about dropped out, and did do transfer applications. I should add that his grades were still good, even though he barely went to class second semester. His girlfriend (a soph transfer) is having the same experience with the general requirement courses she is taking. </p>

<p>I was pretty upset that the education was so poor with what we were paying and the reputation of the school. My son went to an excellent (but not top 10) boarding school and knows good teaching when he sees it. Instead of transferring, he took some steps to make sure he got into some better classes for soph year, put off some of his general requirement courses so he wasn’t taking entire semesters of bad classes, and got a few things out of the way in summer school. He tells me this year he is happy with the education he is getting and knows his degree will be worth something.
I still think the reputation of some of these schools exceeds the quality of the education you actually get.</p>

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<p>re. the intro psych class at the ivy in the 1000 person auditorium…</p>

<p>I was an engineering student with no need at all to take this class, and carrying 5 courses so I couldn’t even if I wanted to, but I had this period free and attended almost every lecture just because the prof was so engaging and I wanted to hear him talk. This class is held in such a large hall because that many students wish to attend.</p>

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<p>I think I’d just empathize.
I wouldn’t assume that classes are necessarily SUPPOSED to be interesting (although it’s great when they are). I think interest is generally something that students bring to the material. An active learner can become interested in just about anything. I see developing and maintaining that interest as one of the major tasks of students. Fortunately some professors make that easy. Others…, well…</p>

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<p>What this goes to show is that being at a “top” school isn’t the be all end all of a good college education</p>

<p>Also, if this class is a requirement for his intended major, and he is bored…it could be that his intended major is not for him? That is something to just consider</p>

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<p>MOWC: Is this the same for freshmen in the Wharton School of Business ? My son is at a top rated university and raves about the professors teaching methods in class. As a freshman he has had 3 classes with over 75 students and now has 4 classes all less than 20 students. Says the profs are amazing! And he went to an elite New England prep school where almost all of his classes had less than 12 students and the instructors were outstanding. As an aside regarding a third school, maybe the students with guaranteed transfer options to Cornell are getting a great deal by avoiding large introductory courses.</p>

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<p>I’ve run into huge lecture courses that were wonderful with lectures well worth attending and ones that were dreadful. I stopped attending lectures for a Shakespeare course I took - though the break-out sessions were fine and I didn’t skip those. If it’s repeating material I see no need for him to attend class unless they take attendance. I’m glad my son is going to a college where they aren’t making him repeat AP coursework.</p>

<p>And as for those boring lecture courses - I learned quickly to only take courses with professors I liked.</p>

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<p>Re the introductory psychology class at the Ivy with more than 1000 students.</p>

<p>My daughter took that course at that school last semester. She really enjoyed it, learned a lot about psychology, and got a very high grade. What’s not to like?</p>

<p>The course in question is not required in any curriculum (it’s not even a requirement for psychology majors). Kids are in that class because they want to be.</p>

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<ol>
<li> When I was a student (at a single-initial school), there was only one undergraduate class that had as many as 1,000 students. There was one reason, and only one reason for that: The professor was an electrifying lecturer and showman. (The course was a requirement only for a major that maybe attracted 10-20 students a year.)</li>
</ol>

<p>That’s not to say that large, boring lecture courses don’t exist. I’m sure they do. I managed to get through four years of college without ever having one, though. (Not true of law school, unfortunately.)</p>

<ol>
<li> My son is currently a first-year college student, and taking two (out of four) classes that are essentially repeating AP classes he took. And in another class, about 1/3 of the reading for this quarter is a work that he spent half a year studying in an IB class.</li>
</ol>

<p>He hasn’t said he was bored. Not once. </p>

<p>He HAS said that he’s glad he decided to re-take these courses (where he had a choice), because the approach and depth are so different from what he had in high school, and he’s getting so much out of them. Also, he met his girlfriend in one of them, and several good friends in the lab section of another.</p>

<p>So . . . your mileage may vary.</p>

<ol>
<li> It is rarely the case that the professor thinks he’s wasting his students’ time. Sometimes, as a student, you have to ask yourself, “What is he (or she) trying to communicate that’s special, how is he (or she) doing that, and why am I missing it?”</li>
</ol>

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<p>Marian: I have read on this forum that a psychology class at Cornell attracts up to 2,000 students due to the fame and engaging teaching methods of the professor. While earning my J.D. degree, we had one world famous lecturer that always had a fully enrolled course with standing room only— totaling about two (200) hundred students-- I found it boring and it was the only course which I ever dropped out of during my J.D. portion of law school. My impression was that many students stayed, not because of electrifying lectures–they weren’t, but because of the fame of the professor and the fact that he was the highest grader of the entire law school faculty.</p>

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<p>My daughter is taking take an intro survey course (Art History) required for her major this semester as a junior. She took the AP version of this course in high school (as an independent study) and earned a 4 on the AP test. She started college at a school where this score placed her out of the course, and has taken several advanced art history courses . However, she transferred as a sophomore to another college where a 5 on the AP test was needed to excuse her from this course as a requirement for her major, and a 4 was not sufficient. She appealed to be excused from the survey course, arguing that she had already taken more advanced courses and requesting to do some type of independent work instead, but she did not win this appeal. She was not happy at having to take the survey course, with many students who are simply taking it to fulfill a distribution requirement, but now that the class has started, she feels that it is worthwhile. She told me that the professor is very good and the book they are using is different from the one she studied previously. She thinks she will get a lot out of the class since she already knows the basics of the subject well, and it is not a waste of her time, as she originally feared.</p>

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<p>That’s the course I was talking about. The enrollment last semester was 1200, give or take a few, which is the capacity of the largest auditorium currently available. It may have been higher before that auditorium was renovated a few years ago. Possibly, the new version of the auditorium may have fewer seats. I had heard that enrollments were as high as 1800 in the past, but the limit seems to be lower now.</p>

<p>I have a different opinion on large classes than most people do. As far as I’m concerned, if there are more than about 50 people in the class, it’s going to be a pure lecture, with no discussion (except in a separate discussion section). I see no difference in lecturing to 50 people versus lecturing to 1000. (There was no more discussion in my daughter’s 90-person economics class than in the 1200-person psychology class.) To me, the truly meaningful difference is between lecture courses (of whatever size) and discussion-based seminar courses. Ideally, a student’s schedule should include some of the latter as well as the former.</p>