boring classes at top schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>To Brown alums of “a certain age” the names John Rowe Workman, Sears Jayne, Ed Beiser (Classics, English Literature/Shakespeare, Political Science respectively) and a dozen of their colleagues evoke the same image-- a lecture class with kids sitting on the radiators, piling out of the doorways, standing room only, and either sobbing or applause after virtually every lecture.</p>

<p>You could get stuck in a seminar with 12 other students and a brilliant professor where every class discussion got hijacked by some arrogant twit with a political agenda. Me- I’ll take the big lecture every time. At least I got my money’s worth!!!</p>

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<p>Figure out how much each class is worth – divide tuition by number of classes and come up with a per/class cost. I remember doing that when I was in college, and decided I certainly wouldn’t miss any classes. </p>

<p>I agree that some profs are just boring lecturers. One of the most brilliant profs at my college was deadly dull. And I also agree that there’s not much difference between a 50 person lecture class and a 1200 person lecture class. My daughter loves large lecture classes – right now, she prefers them to small seminars. Go figure. She’s taking one of the largest classes on her campus, and loved the first lecture.</p>

<p>Edit: After seeing blossom’s post – yup, those three were amazing (I only had two of them).</p>

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<p>The most boring class I ever took was Linear Algebra. The professor’s lectures consisted of reading from the book, and transcribing the example problems from the text onto the blackboard. At least once a week, he’d get lost, and spend five minutes retracing his steps and trying to figure out where he went wrong. I was a freshman, and dutifully attended each class, though it added absolutely no value to my education, except to convince me that if I was a teacher, I had a perfect example of what NOT to do.</p>

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<p>Marian might be right about class size and pedagogy, though I do have a counter example. I have successfully taught a discusison and interactive (exercised based) course with 100 students. Not nearly as good at 50 or 20, but it can be done.</p>

<p>As a few others have said already, large isn’t always a negative. For some straight up intro lecture classes, or for some very engaging profs, it may not matter at all.</p>

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<p>I wanted to also add that just because one may have taken a class before really doesn’t mean you won’t get a lot out of it doing what seems like a ‘repeat’. There is almost always another level by which one can learn something. Paradoxically, sometimes it is not possible to appreciate that fact until you already have a deep understanding of it (you don’t know what you don’t know). In fact, in a few classes I teach, I learn the material myself differently and deeper each time I teach it.</p>

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<p>Then there is the issue of TAs with such poor English that the students can’t understand them and stop going to the classes because it is a waste of time.</p>

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<p>A boring repetative course actually worked for my D. Intro science, and she had a terrific high school teacher who had covered much of the same material very well. D went faithfully to class because attendance counted. However, she was known to do crosswork puzzles or other little tasks during the lecture, she thought un-noticed. Unfortunately or fortunately, the professor did notice, discovered her name, noted that she was doing well in spite of the ‘busy work’, emailed and invited her to office hours to suggest that she explore some upper level courses the following semester. He offered to mentor her and his guidance and advice has led to an amazing number of research opportunities and she is set to apply to doctoral programs next fall. A completely unexpected path. Her boring class turned out to be so much more than she could have ever expected. Not so boring after all!</p>

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<p>Thank you so much for all of your insightful and helpful comments!</p>

<p>eg1, starbright: I, who used to diligently attend all of my classes, appreciate your remarks on constructive side of skipping classes. In my experience, those who think they know the materials often do not know well enough (they just think that way), and then do not reach to the stage of getting into a deeper level of learning. If those who miss classes are indeed using their time more productively, perhaps it is ok, but do many of those really do so?</p>

<p>MomofWildChild: Thank you for sharing your experience. I was hoping my son to enjoy all of his classes and keep his excitement in learning, and myself got frustrated for finding out his excitement level is getting lowered.</p>

<p>jasmom: Right, I really like my son to keep growing as an active learner, and one thing definitely helping my son this year is the peer group continuously stimulating him, but professors seemed not very helpful in that regard.
Perhaps, I expected too much?</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom: Good point! Since the other class, that my son was looking forward but expressed his disappointment as well, is more directly related to his intended major, I told my S to use this as an opportunity to think about his intended major. Perhaps, it is a process needed for him to find out what each major/program is really like and to see if he truly enjoys working on those.</p>

<p>Large auditorium class: It is refreshing to hear some of your very positive experience in large auditorium classes. I was talking about Cornell Psy course as some of you mentioned :-) I didn’t know the details about the course, but just the size overwhelmed me. For me, teaching, including lecturing, involves personal interactions, and I couldn’t imagine how the instructor interacts with 1000 students! I I wish I sit in that famous Cornell Psy class.</p>

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<p>MOWC. Ouch for that school. Ours slept thru Physics for Engineering, front row, got an A, and a solicitation by prof to change majors to Physics. I forgot what this WC is majoring in.</p>

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<p>My WildChild is now an English major (pre-law). He needs to go to law school so he can handle his own defense in the future… He started at his college thinking business/investment banking/$$$$ but didn’t like what he perceived as the total lack of intellectualism and the fact that he wasn’t getting to read any books.</p>

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<p>Mom of Wild Child,
Is your son going to UPenn? Doesn’t UPenn have the #1 ranked business/finance school in the country?</p>

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<p>Yes and yes. My son is not in Wharton.</p>

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<p>i have had a boring class each semester, but for me they were subjects i was interested in just had trouble waking up early enough/motivating myself in general to go, so here’s what i did and am doing:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>when the professor says “there is a student in this class who would like the services of a note taker, if anyone is interested in helping out please send me an e-mail.” take him up on it! i’ve gotten to know the professors in the “boring” classes through this, and knowing that someone is relying on my notes gives me enough incentive to go to class. then again, it could just be me. i did this once last semester and once this semester.</p></li>
<li><p>put together coffee the night before so the next morning all you have to do is turn it on.</p></li>
<li><p>find people on your floor (roommate preferably) to take the class/section with you. when you have someone to suffer with, it’s not really so bad. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>i don’t go to a top anything school, but do find that some general level classes are monotonous. fortunately for me, i have enough credits to qualify for sophomore level courses and even take a class in the grad school that’s related to my research interests. hope your kids find ways to stay interested too!</p>

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<p>

LOL… (but I assume you are familiar with the quote about “fool for a client”…?)</p>

<p>I think this thread should be required reading for anyone making the decision between state U or lower ranked private with merit aid vs. prestige school… along the lines of all that glitters is not gold.</p>

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<p>Calmom- yes, for sure. My deal so far (I’m a lawyer) is that I’ll FIND the lawyers but he has to pay for them! I am trying to prevent some ripping-off. Tell your kids not to get in any trouble in NJ- very expensive.</p>

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<p>I would advise my son to make the most of it. Go to every class, sit in the front, initiate class discussion, ask the prof for suggestions on more in-depth reading. If this is going to be his major, it would be good to build a positive relationship with as many profs as possible. Skipping class is not a good way to do that.</p>

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<p>Calmom, yes, yes. Finding some kids who are not happy with their elite schools or some of the specific courses is very helpful. This gives us informed, objective evidence that these schools are over rated and probably not much better than the average State U. I feel better about some of my D’s rejection letters.</p>

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<p>Regarding skipping class:</p>

<p>In my view, skipping a class is like taking that first potato chip. Once you start, it can snowball. You can easily talk yourself into all sorts of convenient reasons for why it makes sense to skip the class: it’s boring, it’s too early, you need to use the time for research, you have a deadline, etc… Bottom line is that skipping classes is an excellent way to become disengaged, out of touch, and behind.</p>

<p>Take the total college bill and do the math. Look at the math all different ways. Figure out what it costs to attend by the semester, by the course, by the month, by the week, by the class, etc. Figure out how much each course costs. For instance, it you’re at a $40K per year school, each semester represents $20K, and with 4 courses per semester each course represents $5K, and with approx. 15 instructional weeks in the semester each course then represents $333 per week. So, if you skip a given class for a week, you are ripping up $300 bucks and throwing it in the garbage. Obviously, this is a gross generalization and very conceptual, but my son and I found this to be a very helpful exercise. And yes, there are many other factors that make up the college experience, but for the purpose of this exercise we broke it down to classroom time because it was simple to quantify.</p>

<p>The way I look at it, going to class is my kid’s job. He is essentially being “paid” $300 to attend the week’s classes in a given course. If he skips the classes that week, he is ripping up $300 and throwing it in the garbage. If he is not attending class, I want to know what he is doing with himself that is earning more/is more important than that $300… if instead of going to class he is sleeping late or goofing off, that is not an acceptable trade-off. If the class is too “boring” for him to bother to attend, I’d wonder whether that $5K could be better spent. </p>

<p>This also relates to finding a good fit. Just because a school has a wonderful reputation doesn’t mean that it’s the right learning environment for every student. There are so many factors, as has often been discussed on this forum. For my son, a good fit meant (in part) finding a school with enough structure to support his best intentions, not allow him to slide. He is a motivated student but does like to stay up late and sleep late which is a habit that can easily conflict with a class schedule. For example, for him, a school with small classes for which he needed to show up prepared provides better built-in structure/routine than huge lecture-style courses which are easier to skip. This past semester he had a course with 6 students and a prof sitting around a table. He had no choice but to attend the class and stay abreast of the material. Putting in the effort led to feeling more engaged and showing up to every session and the classroom interaction magnified the learning experience. Maybe that is not true for every student.</p>

<p>My sister was not academically oriented and growing up, there were frequent parent/sister discussions about how a class was “too boring” or “the teacher couldn’t teach” or some other reason why she was underperforming.</p>

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<p>Regarding large class sizes, many here are correct in the view that a large lecture with a top rate professor is better than a small class with an uninspired or boring one. Also at many colleges, the large lecture is supplemented with smaller recitation/tutorial sections lead by a TA. I usually found these to be quite helpful insofar as we had the opportunity to discuss the previous lecture material and ask questions about assignments/readings needing some clarification.</p>

<p>A personal story about cutting class. I typically cut few classes but I did take a social cybernetics class where the professor was wonderful but my recitation section and being a late afternoon class, interferred with some glorious spring golf opportunities. I skipped two consecutive recitations as the term was drawing to a close and when a revised final schedule was announced. I walked into the final recitation to get some info on the upcoming final and observed everyone with booknotes open. OOPs. Confirming that the final was being given then and there, I walked out of the classroom, telling my TA coming down the hall that I would talk to him afterwards. Fortunately he and the prof allowed me to take the final exam early the next day and even revised a few questions(they were all short essay) to confirm that I knew the stuff. I do think I was marked down a full grade point on my transcript grade however which was okay by me.</p>

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<p>Not to reopen the perpetual battle of Private vs. Public, but as far as I can tell there is exactly one student at a prestige school represented in this thread who has been unhappy with his classes, and at least 10 others who were very happy. Maybe it’s 1-1/2:10-1/2, since mathmom admitted that she found her Shakespeare class boring (but not the discussion sections) (and in general she seems to have been pleased with the quality of her college).* With some of the posters, it’s hard to tell, so maybe the count isn’t quite so overwhelming. And I suspect if you surveyed engaged students at public universities, they would be just as happy with their classes. But, on the whole, the evidence in this thread suggests that what glitters may darn well be gold.</p>

<ul>
<li>I’ll note, since I am familiar with the time period, that mathmom attended college at something of a low point for her university’s English department, and that the Shakespeare courses there today are taught by the acknowledged World’s Leading Expert who is a sensational scholar, a highly engaging writer, and supposedly a very good lecturer. So that particular problem has probably been fixed for this generation.</li>
</ul>