<p>Starbright’s post #8 is worth rereading.</p>
<p>Let me add that if a student feels bored, he/she needs to figure out why and address it in a way that maximizes his or her learning experience.</p>
<p>Oh one more thing. The largest class a CalTech for many years was the Lectures on Physics section taught by the late, great Richard Feynman. By all accounts it was an unforgettable experience and some, if not all, the lectures can be found on line. sample here( <a href=“http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Science/Physics/The-Feynman-Lectures-on-Physics-Volume-10-Basic-Concepts-in-Quantum-Physics/14738#[/url]”>http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Science/Physics/The-Feynman-Lectures-on-Physics-Volume-10-Basic-Concepts-in-Quantum-Physics/14738#</a> )</p>
<p>re Cornell Psych 101, Dr James Maas</p>
<p>Of course the prof doesn’t interact with the students during the class. I don’t even know if it was possible to see him during office hours, my friends who actually took the class went to office hours for a TA. Marian probably has more recent knowledge of how this worked. But there is no way one could expect one prof to be the only source of backup for the 1000+ students in the class.</p>
<p>And the lectures were multi-media (I took this in the 80’s it has probably gotten even more sophisticated since then) with lots of slides and movies. It had to be good for me to remember it so well 20 years later. </p>
<p>I don’t remember how easy the grading was. I know my friends did a lot of reading and extra work outside of the lectures. It wasn’t regarded as an “easy” class.</p>
<p>My daughter is a second semester soph at a top 50 LAC (but at the bottom of that “top”) . Even then her test scores are 200 points above their SAT 75th percentile. She is a typical biology kid taking typical pre-med coursework, although she is loading up on the science courses in an attempt to take the MCAT this summer (get it out the way early). As such she has taken some junior and senior filled classes. </p>
<p>Because she did turn down some very well thought of schools, I listen very closely for signs of dis-satisfaction in her classmates, coursework, profs. There have been none. Every prof she has had have earned superlatives from her save one and her comments were neutral on that one. </p>
<p>The grading is very tough. In some classes zero A’s are given. In some maybe 5 to 10%. On average only single digit numbers of kids graduate magna (3.85) or summa (3.95) at this school, although a good many graduate cum laude (3.25, I think) or with departmental honors.</p>
<p>The courses move quickly. The labs are demanding. She chooses the profs who are “amazing” rather than by time of day or perceived difficulty. Her non-science courses have yielded her very first “less than 4.0” grades. The have also yielded the prof she feels is the most “amazing”.</p>
<p>She has found a mentor that believes in her and is opening doors for her to continue her research in new and exciting ways that could have never been predicted prior to selecting her school (because they simply didn’t exist). She will be an individual presenter at a national conference in March. Her mentor and her research have been vetted by members of this board who are “in the business”, even by some who were quite suspect 
that UG research at her LAC could be “all that”. (It had always looked impressive to me but again, I was the guy who couldn’t put the home slurpee maker together at Christmas.) </p>
<p>There are two science-y young ladies that entered with my D who are every bit as motivated and every bit as aggressive academically. There are probably 20 science-y young men and women right there with these 3. I would guess that there are even stronger numbers in non-science areas. These kids were all the top kids in their schools, many of them prep and respected day schools. They have study groups and share outlines and act with a cooperative spirit. I’d like to think my kid helps that along. I hope so. </p>
<p>Is it what she had hoped for in a college experience? It is succeeding far beyond her expectations. She is thrilled.</p>
<p>I can only hope that every parent can hear the reports I hear. It can’t get much better than this. I wish y’all luck in the process. There are difficult choices. </p>
<p>BTW, they still drink too much. No place is perfect. ;)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For some reason, on this board, every criticism of a prestige school is taken to mean that the school is overrated.</p>
<p>I took some classes I didn’t like. I had some professors who were bad lecturers, or mean. Nearly everyone does! It happens (even to my friends at LACs)! That doesn’t mean that my alma mater “isn’t much better than the average State U”. I would argue against that until I was blue in the face.</p>
<p>One thing to note, for those suffering from bad lecturers, is that SOME (not all) of those lecturers turn out to be infinitely better at providing one-on-one instruction. I had one class where the lectures were so hard to follow (the prof was charismatic enough for two or three profs, but nobody could figure out what on earth he was talking about because he lectured in stream-of-consciousness format) that I stopped going after a few classes…and started going instead to the relatively long office hours. The prof was so much more coherent when he was talking to me and one or two others instead of lecturing (and extremely friendly as well), and the TA, who didn’t get to lecture, turned out to be an excellent teacher. I did well in the class and they both liked me a lot.</p>
<p>I also find the large lecture/small recitation format to be very helpful, particularly if both the prof and the TA are good. You get the material in two different formats from teachers with different styles, and the recitations reinforce and clarify the lecture. You get the pedagogical benefits of both large classes (the lectures) and small classes (the recitations). When I took US Foreign Policy, this was used to wonderful effect - a lecture to dozens of students by an absolutely brilliant lecturer, followed by a discussion of the material amongst a group of 10, led by a competent TA.</p>
<p>I have a colleague who just came back from Rome. I asked, “didn’t you love the Sistine Chapel?” Nope, didn’t get there. I asked, “Wasn’t walking through the Forum a real high?” Nope, not on the agenda. Ditto every church, museum, gallery, ancient ruin, etc. She sat in cafes, drank espressos in the morning and wine in the afternoons; ate in several top rated restaurants, bought shoes and gloves in pricey boutiques, and considers this one of the best vacations she’s ever had.</p>
<p>To me it’s a waste; I buy my shoes in Payless so the notion of flying halfway around the world to go shoe shopping (and pay with Euros yet!) is unfathomable to me. However, she had a ball. Does that mean that Rome is “over-rated” or “all hype”?</p>
<p>My kids took advantage of many different ways of learning at their colleges. Lectures, tutorials, sessions with the TA, hanging out in a lab learning from grad students, study sessions with dorm mates over pizza late at night. I don’t think that every single lecture is going to be an epiphany. Some kids will cut class (or spend a week in Rome drinking coffee and buying shoes.) Doesn’t mean that the learning isn’t there.</p>
<p>Feynmann’s physics lectures at Caltech: my understanding is that the huge crowds attending them were more and more made up of other professors and grad students. The freshmen were totally lost, and had a miserable time on the tests, because they were given no idea about how to really work problems. I think this is a special case–a seemingly lower-level course given by a dynamic lecturer which really mostly benefits upper division/graduate level students. I love the red books, but the thought of having to learn first year physics from them is one scary thought.</p>
<p>For schools that have podcasts their lecture courses available on line: are there any boring ones? Maybe that’s a good tipoff, when a professor isn’t featured on the downloads list!</p>
<p>edad- I don’t think you can draw that conclusion at all (no better than the average state u). </p>
<p>To me the take-away is that you don’t automatically get a magical education just because a school is high on the prestige lists. You might have to be really smart in your class choices and even suffer through some sub-par classes. However, you DO have a lot of very bright and motivated classmates which can lead to an enriched college experience. (as in Cur’s post) As much as I thought my kid should transfer to a state u after the unhappy freshman year, friends of mine who had gone to these same state schools told me that they were not the right place for him. H and I both went to large state schools and have been quite successful professionally, so I am not knocking that type of education at all. However, the way we managed to set up our son’s pre-college education, experiences and expectations, a state u would not have been the right place (nor for our daughter (Rice '07).</p>
<p>Momof WildChild</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree that pre-college education at small, very intense preparatory schools might make a large state u a shock. But, as you have related even Penn did not guarantee that every course was a “winner.”</p>
<p>S’s pre-college was like that of your son (exactly like yours for awhile–Go Lions!). He is finding that that some courses are “just get through them.” But, some have been real eye-opening experiences. Since S went small LAC with merit, he has found that it is the EC’s that make the everyday experience a stimulating challenge. He’s making contact with the professors and they are available so he has already started the forward looking process of “what’s next?”</p>
<p>For some, that combination, more than just reputation or general student body stats and profiles seems to provide the ultimate experience.</p>
<p>MWW, you should know better. </p>
<p>After 3000 plus posts you should know that on this forum you are allowed to draw conclusions based on hearsay, rumors and especially a single ancedotal comment. I don’t see why a single unhappy student should not be used to validate that an elite school is overrated.</p>
<p>Good point, edad! Of course. :)</p>
<p>For those few that don’t “know” me, I was not necessarily speaking with pride about how we set up our son’s pre-college education. There were lots of pluses, but also some negatives. One of them being this very point- there are a lot of expectations created as to what college is going to be like.</p>
<p>I still think that if a kid is really bored in a class that is toward his major, he might want think about his major- it might just be the class, or it could be the material</p>
<p>I wanted to do accounting in colege…zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz</p>
<p>If my kids are bored, they’re not allowed to tell me. I made a big deal out of banning that as the “B” word in the house around age 6, on the warpath that “creative minds are never bored” and if they were, it was their problem not mine to address it.</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean they’re never bored. It just means I don’t have to HEAR about it if they are.</p>
<p>When we were little my brother and sister and I would complain about boredom. My mother would tell us if we were bored we could clean our rooms. Jump started some of our most creative play:).</p>
<p>^^^ same thing. “You’re bored? Here’s a broom.” (or a mop, dustrag, toilet brush- the worst BTW, lawnmower, hose, edger, weedclaw…)</p>
<p>I was bored a lot in college. Sometimes I blame the Vietnam War. Rather than preparing for a career, I knew I would be drafted as soon as I graduated. I was right. I only had to wait 2 weeks for the draft notice. </p>
<p>Actually, I think I was bored for other reasons. I had a couple of annoying deficiencies, one of which was an inconsistent memory. Most of my study time - which was pretty minimal - was spent memorizing. In spite of my deficiencies, I was very bright. I always scored very high on IQ and SAT type tests. I could easily daydream and learn and retain all the material covered in classes. I hardly ever read the textbooks. A couple of times I found a quite spot in the library and with a couple of afternoons work, I could read the textbooks, take a couple of pages of notes to jog my memory and never have to go to the classes except for the exams.</p>
<p>Those of you who are “gifted” or have gifted kids know a lot about boredom. If not, imagine being a college educated adult and trying to take a classes in middle school. You would likely have a tough time maintaining interest. You might want to argue with the teachers or correct their errors, but that is never well received. </p>
<p>Maybe I should have spent more time cleaning my dorm room but I never found that to be especially stimulating. My boredom has affected the way I look at college. At least for me, I needed a challenging, stimulating experience and I should have worked harder to find it.</p>
<p>Oh never mind.</p>