It’s small but down the street from W Michigan - so perhaps there’s interaction.
What state are you from - to find some where driving or easier flights might work?
Two flights - meaning a one stop - not that huge a thing (IMHO) given the amount of time.
I mean, is Portland Maine a one stop (may be if you’re at a major city).
Williamsburg VA is a haul from either Richmond or Virginia Beach, etc.
I personally think the list is/was fine as was - but a safety LAC wouldn’t hurt - just in case - so you don’t get stuck with a big school, unless he decides he likes that.
Of course, Pitt and UMN are different - size wise.
Here’s an interesting link - ranks programs by size - UMN on your list has 186 kids (assuming the list is accurate).
If you go far down the list, you find Case Western - whose kids are described as nerdy but socialish; everyonoe is a nerd in their own way, everyone is unique
I know music and exploration are big there - it has a major airport.
If you demonstrate interest, I think likely…might be worth a look.
Do you have any suggestions for places beyond Bowdoin?
I think that you already have a great list and there is no need to stretch it. But since you asked . . .
I wonder about his interest in music. Carleton has St. Olaf’s nearby to supplement whatever is happening on campus at Carleton. And Bowdoin has access to Portland, which has an emerging music scene. But even still, both are in relatively isolated locations. Two other colleges occur to me, which are both excellent in Chemistry , and which offer the LAC access to professors, but are in locations with greater access to live music.
The first is Amherst College. The Amherst/Northampton area is actually the second largest booking venue in New England with opportunities ranging from small clubs to the 800 seat Amherst Academy of Music Theater. In addition, Amherst is part of the 5 college consortium, so whatever is being offered on campus is supplemented by whatever is going on at the other 4 campuses, including 700 seat Bowker Auditorium at UMass.
The 2nd college I had in mind is Harvey Mudd, which is excellent for Chemistry and is one of the Claremont Colleges consortium in greater LA. All of the Claremont colleges are excellent and they all offer Chemistry. They also offer music on campus, including the Joint Music Program, which is a collaboration among 4 of the 5 colleges. But what their location offers, which is of even greater interest here, is access to the huge array of live music performances in LA in the same way that Bowdoin has access to Portland.
We’re in PA. Portland is an easy direct flight.
That’s true about W&M not being so easy to get to. Maybe Kalamazoo being two flights away isn’t so bad.
Thanks for the additional ideas!
Thank you for these! my son actually mentioned Amherst with interest the other day. Last summer we walked the campus and checked out the charming town (bustling with students), but we haven’t taken a tour. I was under the impression that it might be a little more competitive and intense (culture-wise) than Bowdoin, which I think might have the slightly more laid back vibe that DS thinks he’s looking for. But maybe Amherst would be great for him. I have heard it has a strong chem program, I think. And also good music opportunities on campus. Nice to know about the opportunities to hear live music off campus as well. The area, with the liveliness and resources of the five colleges, seems very appealing.
Harvey Mudd was on our radar a while back. I think DS decided it felt a little too intensely focused on STEM. He wants the chance to have a more full bodied liberal arts experience. But I do hear wonderful things about it. DS also seems to be leaning toward staying a little closer to home–either in the Northeast or midwest. I do love the idea of the Claremont 5 college consortium. I wondered for a while whether Pomona might be a good fit for him. His guidance counselor suggested Pitzer.
He liked it when we visited last summer, though hard to tell with very few students there. I wonder whether he needs a slightly more laid back vibe. But he might love it! Such a gorgeous campus and lovely traditions.
Just to clarify about the experience at Harvey Mudd. First of all, they are unusual among STEM focused colleges in that they identify as a liberal arts college. To show they mean it, they require a core curriculum, which includes 13 courses from the humanities, social sciences, the arts, and a writing course.
Second, the beauty of being in the Claremont consortium is that students have cross registration privileges at the other 4 colleges. With the 5 colleges all being immediately adjacent, it’s more like one medium sized college of 6300 students BUT with the class sizes of a small liberal arts college. As a result, no travel time is lost getting to another campus when a student cross registers for a class at one of the other 4 colleges. S/he simply walks across the complex where they already attend classes. So, lots of opportunities for interaction with students studying other disciplines whether in class or in shared clubs, facilities, and activities, or in dining halls. And students really do take courses at the other colleges. The typical Pitzer student, for example, takes only 50% of his/her classes at Pitzer over 4 years.
Third, the fact that the core curriculum requires 13 courses in humanities, social sciences, and the arts doesn’t mean that Mudd students are limited to 13 courses in those non-STEM areas. That’s a minimum. They can certainly use electives to take even more courses in those areas.
Finally, I suggested Mudd because it has the strongest reputation in the sciences. But Pomona, Pitzer, and Claremont McKenna are all top liberal arts colleges in their own right and all offer a Chemistry major. The power of the combined enrollments is that they can hire faculty who can teach at more than one of the 5 colleges, thereby creating full time positions when it might be difficult to do so otherwise. This strengthens the faculty for the consortium as a whole as well as each individual college’s faculty. It also allows them to collaborate to create combined departments. Pitzer and Scripps, for example, have a joint Dept. Of Natural Sciences with a brand new building.
I wonder if your son has considered Williams. Another reach for sure but it seems to offer an excellent combination of his priorities. I would say its overarching “personality” is quite similar to Carleton and Bowdoin, but with a wider breadth and depth of music performance and instruction offerings even for non-majors.
Williams chemistry department is large and well funded with close synergy with the school’s overall superb math and science programs.
The outing club is also widely and enthusiastically supported with doorstep access to nature.
Oxford style tutorials and Winter Study are other points of differentiation
But it’s really your description of your son’s commitment to music that makes Williams stand out among academically rigorous non-conservatory small LACSs.
I wasn’t going to suggest new schools, since I think you’ve got a solid list already, but since you’re in PA, has he looked at Haverford? I put it in the same “work hard / play nice” cluster that I put Carleton, W&M, Tufts, Brown, and a few others in, and since it’s presumably close-ish to you, it could be worth a visit if an RD application makes sense.
I would agree that Haverford may have the vibe he’s looking for (and it could be visited at the same time as Swat. ) AND I think they have a quite solid list already.
Our CC didn’t want kids to ED to schools they hadn’t visited while class was in session.
So personally, I think there is a pretty good chance that if he EDs Bowdoin, he will in fact be admitted ED to Bowdoin, at which point he will cancel/withdraw all other applications (I’m assuming he will likely be admitted to Pitt and Minnesota by that point) and will be attending Bowdoin. No guarantees but it is obviously possible.
I think the question is then what happens next at that point? If he is incredibly excited about Bowdoin, is happy never knowing about all the other colleges on his list, and so on–great! My feeling is as long as a kid is going to a comfortably affordable college that is suitable for their interests and that they are excited to attend, that is a win, and they are on to the next phase of making the most of their college experience.
I specifically think the idea there is some perfect college out there for each kid that they should be identifying in advance is a mistake. Kids are adaptable, predicting exactly what they will be doing in college is impossible, and so on. So, you can narrow it down to better or worse bets, but then the rest really is about making the most of it. And again, I think the best way to start that process of making the most of it is by being very excited about your college. So that to me is really enough–if they have given the college a good look, it makes sense financially and academically, and they are very excited, then they have done what they can reasonably do to stack the odds in their favor in terms of having a good college experience.
And I think that is ultimately for him to evaluate and decide. He has time to do more investigation and reflection, and again may actually have some offers by then. But if he is still feeling confident that Bowdoin is the right choice for him by the ED application deadline–personally, I’d just support him and see what happens.
I really hope he can visit Brown. My son did an overnight there and ended up attending and was spectacularly happy there (STEM). He still lives and works with Brown folks: strong alumni network. Beautiful campus, love Thayer Street, quirky and cooperative vibe, academics excellent without required core, strong advising. Music department is small but vibrant.
I also thought of Williams.
I hope your son is doing a music supplement with video/recording, music resume and 1-2 music letters of recommendation. Check with the schools on what they want and accept. Another letter of recommendation from his internship might help too, if accepted by the schools.
Thanks! I also think Haverford could be good for him–both in terms of vibe and strength in chemistry. We visited last summer (not ideal, I realize), and my son felt it was too small and didn’t love the campus. We could consider revisiting, though.
Thanks! I’ve heard about Williams’ strength in music (and of course across the board), and this is very appealing. I have also gotten the impression, though this is maybe wrong, that there’s a bit more of a competitive and intense vibe there than at places like Carleton, Bowdoin, Vassar, Brown, etc. (I have the sense that Amherst may be similar in vibe to Williams, but again, I really don’t know). I think my son would love the love of learning and the tutorials at Williams.
Thanks so much! You make a very compelling case! I hadn’t realized how much HM emphasizes the importance of a broad exploration of the liberal arts. I do think that the opportunity for cross registration and socialization across the 5 colleges is extremely appealing. Nice to know that students actually do take advantage of this. Maybe we really should try to visit this fall. We may also be feeling a bit ready to wind down the process of list building and visiting. It’s been really fun. Also takes a lot of energy/time/$. But maybe worth it to check out the Claremont schools.
Yes, we definitely will visit Brown. You know, in the last couple of days–in part because of the encouraging feedback in this thread, DS is getting increasingly interested in Brown. Yesterday we talked with a family member and his girlfriend, who graduated recently and loved it. They experienced a community that felt intellectually curious, relatively laid-back, happy, and supportive. They did say that they at times wished for smaller classes and that some of the profs were better than others (as with anywhere). They enjoyed Providence and the proximity to Boston and beaches. DS has gone back and forth about whether he’d prefer a small (not too small–at least 1800) LAC or a small-medium sized university. He thinks (and I agree) that he could be happy at either. In the last couple days he seems to be leaning more toward the latter. But again, he could be happy at many different kinds of places.
Yes, I hear Williams has a great music program! I have some concern about what I’ve heard might be a competitive/intense vibe. I could be off-base.
And yes, he will do a music supplement. I wasn’t sure whether he should ask for a recommendation from his piano teacher (who went to Oberlin). I’ll make sure he finds out what schools want/accept. His chemistry lab internship professor offered to write him a recommendation, yes. Not sure how many LoRs are too many, so we will look into this at each school.
I so appreciate your wise perspective. I’ll try to help him explore whether he’d prefer to have some choices to weigh following RD results, or if he could embrace an ED school he might get into without knowing the other options that might have been available to him had he waited for RD. I think he’s more laid-back about all of this than I am (though I definitely know there’s no one right place for him) and could be happy in many different places.
IMO Williams and Carleton are both competitive/intense/rigorous/grindy schools. Not saying any of the other schools mentioned are ‘easy’. Of course this is highly subjective and relatively few people have attended more than one of these schools for undergrad to give an actual insider view. Everyone will have an opinion informed by the students they know who have gone there, talking with AOs/faculty, etc.