Your son’s experience echoes my D’s, class of 2025, who was also an art history/studio art major. She worked hard, but always has, and never described the atmosphere as competitive, but did use the words “intense” and “rigorous.”
I can’t imagine a more supportive faculty or a kinder, quirkier, funnier group of friends. Some of her friends were in improv comedy, while others wrote for The Williams Haybale, their version of The Onion. By junior year, even my self-described non-athlete was playing on intramural teams that had silly names.
She wasn’t involved in music performance, but was active in the college’s vibrant radio station. @Exploring1 one of my favorite music groups at Williams is Cello Shots, " Williams College’s only all-cello “a cacella” performance group!"
The music major forum here on CC can be helpful. One small point to mention: if he wants to do music in any way other than a BM, it is sometimes advisable to check on how things work for non-BM students at schools that offer a BM/have a conservatory or school of music. For instance U. of Rochester, Lawrence,. St. Olaf or Oberlin. Also PItt or U of MN. Sometimes the best teachers and performance opportunities go to BM students, or a non-BM student might study with a grad student. Of course he can also find a private teacher (Harvard requires this). It isn’t always a problem: just another question to ask!
Thanks! When we visited Oberlin we attended a Q & A for prospective students interested in hearing about options for taking classes at the Conservatory while being enrolled in the college. It sounded as if Oberlin has been trying to make Conservatory offerings more accessible to the non-Conservatory students, which is nice. Thanks for the suggestion to find out about this at other schools on his list that are known for their music programs.
I fourth or fifth visiting Williams and Brown. I also think your son sounds more Carleton than Bowdoin. I have one son who graduated from Grinnell because he wanted to experience Mid-West nice and intellectual but not competitive enviroment. I graduated from William and Mary (just a few years after Jefferson) and think it would also be a good fit for your son and almost guranteed admit.
With all of that said, my son who is currently a junior at Bowdoin (not an athlete, private school or full pay - but does play in the orchestra) has had the most positive, life changing experience of my 4 sons. He has a friend at Bowdoin whose parents and sister attended Carleton and is majoring in a science (I think maybe Chemistry) and stayed on campus this summer to do research alone with many of my son’s friends (not limited to science). Perhaps, your son could reach out to a chemistry Prof. to get more info. Department Fellowships | Bowdoin College
The food is amazing at the 2 dining halls (lobster, all bread baked on campus, yule logs, fantastic salads and lots and lots of dishes with blueberries) and the two defining features of almost all the students is intellectual curiosity and “niceness”.
Yes Oberlin has a “low wall” between conservatory and college. I think Bard does too. Again, the music major forum could be helpful with info on how it works for non-BM students at schools with conservatories or schools of music. You do not have to major in music to benefit from that forum!
I very much doubt any elite school has students that are competitive with each other. Why would they be? They ALL will have opportunities. It’s the kids at schools where resources and opportunities are not as plentiful that have an incentive to compete with each other.
Misery Olympics is a different thing. Chicago has that reputation, whether it’s deserved or not nowadays.
Yes, one might think. But this would be underestimating the human capacity to create a culture of scarcity where none exists. As an example, refer to the threads on CC documenting the cut-throat process to join ECs at some of the top schools. Want to join the Volunteering with Disadvantaged Youth Club? Be prepared to fill out an application, write an essay and interview. And that’s not even talking about Investing Clubs, or Skulls and Bones and the like.
Thanks! We have visited both Oberlin and Wesleyan. Oberlin has stayed on his list, but he didn’t like Middletown and had a lackluster tour guide at Wesleyan, unfortunately.
Do you think Skidmore has a strong chemistry department? I’ve had a hard time sussing that out.
I’ve never seen Skidmore and science spoken about.
Never saw this ranking. Says they use 60+ metrics. Says Skidmore 182. #18 in NY.
Scroll down for top 100
No idea if it’s worth a hoot but the usual suspects are in here. No Lacs in top 100 so….
But hey, why not?
I should add - if any school is needed - it’s a safety - Kalamazoo, Wooster and Lawrence all show opportunities for non music majors. I know K is strong for chem.
I don’t think you need a safety but it’d be good to have one. You never know. The big publics are safe but if the student wants an LAC, why go to a big public?
Just have to add context to your Brown post and class sizes.
Sometimes a class is huge because EVERYONE wants to take it. The professor is a “rock star” (even though I hate that expression) as both a lecturer/teacher and a scholar, and freshman are told “if you don’t get the class this year, keep applying until you do”. These are the classes held in large lecture halls in an attempt to accommodate everyone.
I know in the popular imagination (and on CC) big classes are horrible and impersonal and ambition killing. But I took three of the “mega lectures” at Brown- History of the Supreme Court, Shakespeare’s Tragedies, and Literature from Ancient times to the Present or something like that. The title was irrelevant. It was thousands of pages of reading a week and it was standing room only. Every week you were comparing a work from antiquity to its post-medieval counterpart- it was TOUGH going and it was one of the biggest classes on campus every single semester. (Could you read Tom Jones and the Odyssey in the same month? How did The House of Mirth draw upon Greek tragedy in describing Lily Barth?)
So sure, small classes are great. But big classes are often big for a reason. I audited a Civil War class at Yale one time- taught by David Blight, who is considered one of the country’s finest scholars on abolition, slavery, Civil War, Lincoln, etc. There were students sitting on the window sills. There were students in the hall with the doors propped open, just so they could hear (they couldn’t seem him, but everyone knows what he looks like). There were students in the aisles (fire hazard be damned).
And yes- he was THAT GOOD. A mesmerizing lecturer, fantastic narrator of really complicated issues, and I’m told by the actual students incredibly accessible.
So I would move class size as a concern to the “maybe not a worry” column for now. The class on King Lear changed my life (I can still quote from the lecture, a class I took almost 50 years ago.) I’m betting your kid would rather be sitting in a large hall learning from a Master than sitting in a symposium room hearing his classmates opine. At least on some subjects!!!
Fwiw, this is a great question to ask on a tour – “what are the classes that are really hard to get into?” You’ll be able to follow up and learn whether it’s a required for a popular major (so maybe not so great that it’s big even if everyone is being accomodated) or just so engaging that it’s where everyone wants ro be at 10:00 on Tuesday and Thursday (whoever thought Yiddish Literature would draw SRO crowds?)
Tour guides usually get excited about the latter, btw…
I had a class like this at Brown: City Politics. A 400-student class, and always a waiting list. I had to appeal to get in during my last semester. The professor was absolutely brilliant and legendary, and he made the class seem as intimate as a huge lecture class possibly could be. I still use specific information from that class to this day.
So, yeah, I’m a proponent of small classes (of which I took plenty), but sometimes a huge lecture hits the jackpot.
You are right! He doesn’t need to add more. Thank you for looking into Skidmore & chem, though. Lawrence is on his list as a maybe. We visited Wooster and he liked it OK, but he really didn’t like the town. Others have suggested Kalamazoo as well. Between Kalamazoo and Lawrence, which would you recommend? Lawrence has great music (and also a strong physics department–another of my son’s interests, though he probably wouldn’t major in it). Kalamazoo I think has strong chemistry and also sends a lot of students on to grad school.
DS will definitely apply to St. Olaf, which I realize is not a safety, but I think he has a good chance of getting in there, and that has great sciences and music.
I personally found Appleton a not very intriguing city when I visited Lawrence with my older kid about 7 years ago. But others like it a lot so…who’s to say?
St. Olaf is a safety for your son. Your son’s stats are above its 75th%ile and St. Olaf doesn’t play yield protection games.
I’m a big fan of Lawrence; I know many grads who got a great education in both STEM and music. But I don’t like it better than St. Olaf and it’s a lot harder to get to. St. Olaf is a 40 minute shuttle ride from MSP airport which is a hub.