Budget for elderly parent

Parent Cafe
21

I like the idea several have posted about tying the financial support to her willingness to sign the power of attorney forms.

And you and your husband should discuss if you are strong enough to let this woman sweat out poverty just a bit before you rescue her. She has no clue what she is messing around with, and will not appreciate your help when it comes, she will simply EXPECT your help. She will DEMAND your help.

I like the idea mentioned of getting some counseling NOW. No matter how hard you think it will be, it will be worse. Your MIL will yell hurtful things, bring up painful subjects from childhood, etc. A trained professional can help you both work through both the practical matters and the painful emotional issues that are sure to be intertwined.

What are the laws in your state regarding debt? Will you and your husband be held responsible for paying for debt she incurs? Will you be held responsible if she wrecks her car and injures others?

22

If she is deemed confident to make decisions on her own, there really isn’t much you can do legally, if she doesn’t cooperate. It’s her money. She’ll just run out of money sooner, and then you’ll be in control when there isn’t the money to spend is how it will work. Change her age back 20 years and it might change the mindset. It’s her right to spend down her own money. If you can’t even have a discussion about her finances, you aren’t any where close to controlling them.

I had the opposite problem with my MIL who would not spend a cent of her money that wasn’t wrested out of her. She was always that way and had a terrible reputation in her community for this. We couldn’t get help for her, couldn’t get anyone to do any work on her house or her properties, because she’d refuse to pay, take people to court, run them down. When she had to move in with us due to her broken hip and surgery, if I hadn’t gotten a power of attorney out of her and taken control of an account, we’d have gone bankrupt spending on her. She didn’t want to pay for anything. She’d go into cataplexy just signing her tax return and a check for taxes. And I’m not exaggerating. She even passed out once. That’s how badly signing a check or going over expenditures and bills owed affected her.

That she was gettting mentally confused was really a relief in that regard, because she would forget about the money and expenses. I meticulously kept track of all I spent from the account–would that I do the same for my self (!) and it worked out just fine. I swear she would have preferred we set her out on the curb than pay penny one for anything. She always was that way. We did try counseling–had a social worker, several of them discuss this with her to no avail. The only solution was to take the account and used it without discussing it with her. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

23

Zipyourlips - I am in a VERY similar situation to yours right now. Am on phone and can’t post, but promise I’ll check thread later on from a computer and share some of what we are doing.

24

Well at least she has her health. But seriously, I am sorry that you are facing this situation. It is hard for anyone else to say what is reasonable. I think you sound very generous to help.

I think my mom lived on about 1200 per month for everything including food, medicine etc. She had moved to florida to a senior citizen community, and things were certainly cheaper there than up north. We had some concerns as she got more infirm about how we could afford assisted living if she needed it, since that is very expensive. As it turns out, none of our parents wanted to live in an assisted living type place and all aged in place. They all were frugal, and could have continued living on their savings and SS and very small pensions for years in their homes. It is very difficult when you become involved in these financial matters. At one point FIL did not want to pay the helper we had hired for MIL the rate that she wanted (he had the $,just didn’t want to pay). We started paying her the difference between what he would pay and the amount she wanted since MIL really needed the help (we did not tell him). At some point it came out that we were paying her an additional amount and it was a fight worthy of the golden gloves. He fired her too, and was back to square one. We had gotten involved because he was asking us, and everyone else to help him find a person to assist MIL. Of course no one wanted to work for the amount he offered, and the woman we got was through someone we knew.

But as to your MIL’s spending, I don’t think you can control someone meeting her description. No amount will ever be enough. I am very sorry you are facing this. Your MIL sounds like my step daughter’s mother. That woman went bankrupt, and her 3rd husband had left her a very substantial amount. She spent a fortune, and even had to sell her home. She is not what I would call mentally normal. She has various siblings who help her a bit(I think she was so toxic to her children that they do not help her, and they really are not in a position to do so.) She had to really change her style.

I feel that it one thing to help someone pay for rent, food, medicine, medical care and the like, but not for vacations and other luxuries. We also drive our cars for years and just got rid of our 1998 volvo because I was sick of fixing it. That you are willing to give her an allowance of over $200 per week seems more than generous to me. My MIL and my own mom hardly bought any clothes in their 80’s. I do see some older women in the mall, and often they are buying things that are like those my college aged D buys. They are probably late 60’s or 70’s though, not 80’s. I wouldn’t want to support that habit. In florida, where my mom lived, the ladies she knew went to the early bird special and a matinee movie on the weekend so it was cheaper. There were even cheaper days for the hairdresser if you were so inclined. They played cards and other games that didn’t cost money. My inlaws had a senior membership to the Y where they also could be entertained for a little bit of money. Many houses of worship or communities have senior groups that are similar and have activities, bridge etc., that are low or no cost. Often people spend because they really don’t participate in such activities. Maybe you can help her meet other people in the community who go to these things and she will have a way to spend her time not her money.

25

When MIL was in a somewhat similar situation (over-spending), H’s older brother took complete control of her spending.

Any money that YOU provide can be directed as you’d like it to be. You don’t have to give her cold cash. You could direct your money to specific things…like autopay her electric bill, water bill, rent, etc.

I would also take over buying her staples…the less time she’s in stores, the better…plus you’re likely able to buy in bulk and then split the bulk purchase (huge TP from Costco, then split)

The harsh realities of over-spending are going to hit her in the face. Unless you’re willing to underwrite that behavior, the reality will happen.

What will be done to prevent her from bouncing checks or running up credit debt? I would get that visa’s limit reduced.


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We do need to get a handle on her medical spending. She has a vast array of prescriptions.

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Can you get those set up mail order ?? cheaper

how much does she have coming in for SS and/or pension?

I’m curious…what does she SAY when you talk to her about the fact that she’s running out of money?

26

I know you all think I’m a meany beany…but if I was being asked to provide $1000 support to a big spender, the first thing that would be required to GO would be any credit cards. Otherwise, big spender is going to use the credit card when her cas runs out. Unless you plan to be a bottomless pit of money, this credit cards need to go. Simply put, grandma could decide to charge a vacation or two or three…on her credit card. Who will pay for those?

I would suggest going to some kid of credit counselor…someone who deals with making budgets…and have grandma look at her income and outgo, and listen to what she has to do to balance those.

Get a power of attorney. For me this would be the deal breaker. No POA, no money.

If she were renting a studio or one bedroom apartment, she would already have a little more expendable income. Things need to change…or YOU are going to run out of money too!

27

I don’t think OP should be subsidizing her now. That’s money down a hole. Let her spend up what she has and then she has to have it doled out since it’s no longer hers. Help her get her bills on auto pay to deplete her account as soon as her SS check arrives but you really are not legally allowed to snatch up her credit card, or prevent her from spending her own money just because of her age and that you are stuck with her when she runs out. It’s totally on to her unless she is declared officially incompetent or someone runs interference and snatches up complete control. If she won’t give it up willingly, it can be ugly and start getting into the illegal area. I don’t know anyone who can condone this as there are many elderly who lose their money to others doing this. There has to be that protection which means that it’s her business if she wants to run down her savings.

But do not spend a dime on her now That just delays the inevitable and you lose what you put in before that happens as well. Just prolongs this phase. Fact is, at her age, the stats are not all that favorable of her living a whole lot longer, and if she wants to live it up on her money as long as she can, that’s her choice. Not yours. You can’t control others, just your own actions.

One huge regret that both DH and I have about MIL is that she did not get to use her money on herself and pleasures and ingratiating herself a bit to other while she was alive. Since I only spent her money on things that I felt she needed and necessary bills, when it came to things like gifts from her in her name, she stayed as cheap as ever, and though they say you can’t buy love, she could have given herself a whole other image by giving others more than the ten bucks for an occasion, especially since others knew she had the money. But she was adamant to the end that she did not want to spend on others and would be sniffing out what she was giving to others. It was non negotiable to me that she had caretakers and other such things, but on certain discretionary things, it was up to her–wasn’t going to give or take from her as alleged gifts from her. It was clear that wasn’t ever how she wanted to spend her money, and if it wasn’t essential, I let it go.

But I refused to subsidize her and would had she been in the mode of the OP’s MIL. THAT is within YOUR control. Her spending of HER money is not.

28

@thumper1‌

You aren’t being mean; you’re being VERY logical and using FORESIGHT…which is NEEDED in this scenario.

My MIL had no value of the dollar. She’d fall for every hard-luck story and whiny story from a couple of grandkids (paid $1200 in various speeding tix for one speed-racer-grand-kid who wasn’t limited in any fashion as a consequence.) After that, BIL took control.

Shut down all CCs except maybe one with a tiny limit…like $200. And if she charges on that, then the next month’s allotment goes towards that.

The people with the gold get to make the rules. Granny may never have had to live on a budget before, but if you’re underwriting her, then you have the right to make certain demands.


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I know you all think I'm a meany beany...but if I was being asked to provide $1000 support to a big spender, the first thing that would be required to GO would be any credit cards. Otherwise, big spender is going to use the credit card when her cas runs out. Unless you plan to be a bottomless pit of money, this credit cards need to go. Simply put, grandma could decide to charge a vacation or two or three...on her credit card. Who will pay for those?

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I would suggest going to some kid of credit counselor…someone who deals with making budgets…and have grandma look at her income and outgo, and listen to what she has to do to balance those.

Get a power of attorney. For me this would be the deal breaker. No POA, no money.

If she were renting a studio or one bedroom apartment, she would already have a little more expendable income. Things need to change…or YOU are going to run out of money too!


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29

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don’t think OP should be subsidizing her now. That’s money down a hole. Let her spend up what she has and then she has to have it doled out since it’s no longer hers.

Help her get her bills on auto pay to deplete her account as soon as her SS check arrives b


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ABSOLUTELY… no money until hers has run out. AND…don’t tell her you’re going to bail her out. Let her NOW think that her money is all she’ll ever have.

Then when she runs out, you can really set the rules… Hopefully, she’ll be grateful for the help at that desperate point that she’ll be open.

Don’t “raise her bottom”. Let her BOTTOM OUT FIRST!!! No one like this is open to change until they are DESPERATE and have hit BOTTOM. Don’t enable her…that just raises her bottom and prevents her from feeling the aftermath of her behavior.

And, yes, have everything on autopay so that everything gets paid as soon as SS check goes in.

30

Zipyourlips, first, your MIL is my mother’s long-lost twin.

I totally sympathize - I have been at this for over a year and it has taken a team of my husband, my sister and me to manage all the moving parts, including managing / retiring the debt and dealing with a condo where she is underwater, as well as solving the everyday living expenses and getting a spending addict to understand the value of a dollar.

Since you asked re a $1000/month budget excluding rent:
Here is the $1,100 / month budget we have been trying - for a year - to move my mother towards.
This EXCLUDES rent (we are currently looking for a 1 br apartment for her).

Income:

$1,100 (Soc Sec + pension)

Expenses:
$160 Car insurance
$60 Car (gas and toll)
$10 Car repairs / oil changes (i.e., plan for $120 a year on this)

$210 Health insurance / Medicare gap
$35 Dentist

$100 Internet / Cable

$25 Renters Insurance

$350 Food & sundries / toiletries

$150 Discretionary (restaurant, movies, etc.)

FYI, we already pay for her cell phone and will continue that. We also pay for her co-pays for medications (and get a lot free, as H is a physician).

The biggest pushback, naturally, has been that the $150 discretionary “isn’t enough to have a social life.”

This includes NO money for gifts to others. We (daughters) will buy any gifts that go to our children (at birthdays, Xmas, etc.) so she can have a gift to give.

Hope this is helpful to you. More later.

31

OP - I have had, so far, not one, not two, but THREE “come-to-Jesus” meetings (pardon the expression) where we laid out what needed to be done and the “conditions” of our support - and there are still more in the future. This is truly one of the worst issues I’ve ever had to deal with in my life - and that includes some pretty heavy issues.

We cut up 4 credit cards that had been run up to their limits. Another one was hidden from me that I just found out about. “It’s just for emergencies.” I calmly said, turn it over to me now or I am completely done here.

It’s an addiction. I really have had to start thinking of it that way, and not let my tendency to be compassionate and generous with her turn into enabling.

32

It all can depend upon the relationships she has with her children. That she is 80 something does not come into the picture unless she is mentally incompetent. If push comes to shove and it gets to a social worker or attorney, if she’s competent and it’s her money, it’s her business. But where family/children can come into play is that her own children can gauge what controls can be taken and getting her to agree to them. It’s outright illegal to strongarm someone into turning over their money controls without going through certain channels and if she is not willingly going to hand them over, and is methally competent, it’s up to her.

It’s difficult in the mid stages for many elderly, when they are still not incompetent, at least most or some of the time and can pass a competency exam possibly, but are failing over all. But monetary mishandling is not in itself a sign of this. We are allowed to blow our money if it’s our money even if it comes down to bad situations. With the elderly, the problem is that when they do run out, you can’t just ethically, morally, emotionally throw the out in the streets as one can with younger people. No one cares if a 50 year old has run finances to the ground and has to go to a soup kitchen. An 80 year old? Someone will be phoning family members, and the consensus is that the children, family need to step in. So there is that responsibility there. It’s very difficult because they have rights, and yet it’s often clear where the buck stops.

My MIL operated the same way for years, but as she entered her 80s the same behavior that got eyes rolling and people smoldering and shaking their heads, also got us phone calls as she had crossed the line where society no longer holds her as responsible for stupid decisions. Family is expected to step in. Yet, at the time she was as competent or incompetent as ever, and not a bit cooperative. The broken hip was a blessing, in that she did relent and sign controls over to me. Not my DH, but me. Put me in a bad spot, in that she is NOT my mother, but his. But that really was how we were able to get things working. Otherwise, I’d have been running to the courthouse to pay her property tax the day before her things went to public auction, as that was how she did things. Or paying the electiric bill the day before turn off. Or going to court over not paying for some repair or service and getting it bargained down when she fully owed what was billed. She also needed help in personal hygiene and other things that I was not about to commit to doing regularly, and could afford help, and so I hired some for her.

But in a spendthrift she might well be able to get to her money as fast as you hide it from her. It is her money and if she wants to live it up for a few months before being at your financial mercies, rather than years, that’s her choice. If you can get professional help in the picture (you probably will have to pay) and get her to agree to attempt a budget and to put some money where it is inaccessible for whims, then great. But OP is saying, can’t even talk about it. That’s how it was with my MIL No discussion ever. She’d cut it right off.

33

“Over the past three or four years since we learned of her financial picture, my DH has been struggling to get her to understand or to care about her financial predicament. He has tracked her spending on spreadsheets, sent her overviews that indicate when she will run out of money, made helpful suggestions, all to no effect. (snip)
She has never lived with a budget or worried a bit about money. (snip) She expects someone to rescue her.”

This is exactly the same situation I am. I have constructed the most elegant and beautiful spreadsheets that show her running out of money in X years, and if you save $x here look what happens, and if you spend $y here look what happens. It doesn’t break through, at all. It’s funny money. No conception that $100 spent today means (x * $100) lost tomorrow. I hate to say save your breath, but I have to say it.

34

Our extended family is dealing with a similar situation with a young woman, a cousin. She has a baby, min wage job, doesn’t want to work, spends money on eating out, clothes, tattoos, entertainment before towards any expenses for self and for her child. Won’t listen. Loved too much to just drop off at a shelter, and there is baby involved. Can’t get her to spend a cent of her own money constructively. Can only control what YOU (meaning any given person) give her and how strictly you see that it is used. Even having her check auto deposited and having expenses taken out did not work, because she’d end the arrangement as fast as it was set up. She wants to blow her money and it’s her right to do so.

35

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This is exactly the same situation I am. I have constructed the most elegant and beautiful spreadsheets that show her running out of money in X years, and if you save $x here look what happens, and if you spend $y here look what happens. It doesn’t break through, at all. It’s funny money. No conception that $100 spent today means (x * $100) lost tomorrow. I hate to say save your breath, but I have to say it.


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In some cases, at least with my MIL, they KNOW that their children have enough money to “not let them starve”. @pizzagirl and @zipyourlips‌ , likely the moms in your lives know the same. It’s easy to think that money is “funny money” when they know that their children can rather easily subsidize them if push comes to shove.

That’s why it’s best to let them “hit bottom” become desperate and then you can set limits on how YOUR money gets spent.

36

" It is her money and if she wants to live it up for a few months before being at your financial mercies, rather than years, that’s her choice. If you can get professional help in the picture (you probably will have to pay) and get her to agree to attempt a budget and to put some money where it is inaccessible for whims, then great. But OP is saying, can’t even talk about it. That’s how it was with my MIL No discussion ever. She’d cut it right off."

This is what gets my goat. It’s NOT her choice to live it up for a few months if it’s going to be MY dime from here on out. You don’t get to dip into my hard-earned piggybank earlier and think of it as no big deal.

OP - I am assuming that since your MIL married into wealth, your H had a “nice” upbringing (college, vacations, etc.). This is going to be one of the hardest emotional things to deal with - that just because your MIL gave your H nice things, that doesn’t obligate him to give her nice things when she blows her funds. Believe me, I am still grappling with this one and it’s very hard for me to internalize.

It would almost be easier if there had been some unforeseen issue (like a flood or fire ruining home / belongings) or even Bernie-Madoff-absconded-with-the-funds because at least there would be no blame / responsibility.

37

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This is what gets my goat. It’s NOT her choice to live it up for a few months if it’s going to be MY dime from here on out. You don’t get to dip into my hard-earned piggybank earlier and think of it as no big deal.


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Absolutely it gets your goat. No question about that. But, as you’ve seen, you’re trying to beat common sense into a head that is closed to such good reasoning.

At least your mom has a pension/SS so she won’t be totally without funds when she goes thru her savings. When she’s broke, would she come to live with either you or sister? I can understand that that could be unpleasant as well, but at least her pension would be available to pay for her day to day expenses w/o paying for rent.

38

I completely agree with both of these posters. Stop enabling her NOW. When she bottoms out, you can take control in exchange for helping her…if you want to help her.

39

Of course it’s your business when you are going to be stepping in when she runs out of money, but there is nothing you can do to stop someone spending own money. You can make it unpleasant and if the person lets you put in controls that can be done, but bottom line that is the person’s money and that person wants to blow it sooner rather than later, can’t do anything legally about it.

My MIL would not pay her bills on time. Or at all if she could get away with it. It was her money, and though I could have paid her bill and then tried to get it reimbursed (fat chance!), I could not force her to pay for it. Not legally either Yes, I could forged her signature or attempted to bully the money out of her, or try to set up the auto pay, but if she set her foot down, and wanted to use the money to buy some more FRanklin Mint collections, that was her business, and bottom line there was nothing legal I, or anyone else could do about it.

She refused to sign somethings–DH rageds, she cried, went into cataplexy, but what can you do when it’s not your money and you don’t have the control and the person is still too competent to get guardian ship? Yes, it is her business, bottom line, because you can’t MAKE someone spend or not spend his/her own money the way wanted.

She knew her banker, and anything one put in place, like auto pays (still recommend trying to get them in place), she’d have removed. She wanted to pay the bills personally the absolute last day they were do. And she did suffer some dire consequences for the stupidities too. She sat with a broken hip at her house for a couple of weeks. That’s how stubborn she was.

But yes, bottom line, its HER choice. IF you can legally get around her somehow, that’s a whole other thing. But she has her rights. YOU don’t have to pay for when she goes broke. That is a choice of YOURS, But she has her rights and her choices and unless you have a legal basis, you can’t stop her from spending her own money even if that means she’ll run out and then you are on the stick for her You can get off that stick, but you can’t stop her from running out, not legally without certain things in place, and then it can even get to be an ethical issue.

40

“At least your mom has a pension/SS so she won’t be totally without funds when she goes thru her savings. When she’s broke, would she come to live with either you or sister?”

No, at that point I would pick it all up.

I have had a very hard emotional time with not letting her “bottom out” because I feel guilty, and I suspect the OP (and spouse) have some of that going on, too. On one hand - yeah, I can spare the money to do certain things. OTOH, it enables / rewards / coddles irresponsibility. I will spend whatever it takes for my kids because my kids have shown responsibility in managing money, responsibility in their studies, and are extremely grateful for the opportunities they have been blessed with. People like the OP’s MIL don’t show gratitude or humble themselves easily.

OP, this suggestion went nowhere fast with my mother, but I offer it up nonetheless - are there things she is willing to sell (furniture, jewelry, etc.).

What is the amount of credit card debt she has? Is it worth exploring debt settlement or bankruptcy? I dislike bankruptcy immensely from an ethical standpoint (I don’t like the idea that you just walk away from debt that you incurred), but we are having to go that route w my mother.