And OP - be prepared for MASSIVE doses of guilt. My sister and I have already gotten the “so you’re going to put me in one room with a folding chair and a lightbulb overhead and rats circling around my feet” drama. I’ve had my “nice life” (paid-for elite college, nice wedding, etc.) thrown at me - and anyone who knows me IRL would attest that all I ever wanted out of my parents’ money was an education, not furs and diamonds and what-not.
The emotional guilt and that it would make ones life miserable in terms of moral responsibility undone plays a role in involvement. But every dime one spends out of ones own money to delay the inevitable is a dime you won’t have when she’s bottomed out.
My close friend’s MIL died recently (as did mine, and my MIL) . Frined’s MIL lived with a daughter,adult granddaughter and grandson. She died flat broke with less than a dollar in her bank account, and bills up the whazoo. Apparently, not only was she spending every cent and more for herself, but her housemates, her daughter and others were happy enough to let her spend her money, credit cards, lines, etc on them to that point. Her bills won’t be paid, because there isn’t anything left with which to pay them. The family is just ignoring the bills, saying that she’s dead. She owes for just about everything. The only asset left is the house and what’s in it, and what that status is, we don’t know. My friend’s DH, wants no part of sharing in anything she owned, not a thing. Letting his sibling work this out. No will either. My friend is just glad that the drain of funds is over. They’d been hit up regularly for the last several years. They had purchased an insurance policy with the funeral home when a relative died, that just about paid for the funeral (even a bill left from that) and so the ride is over. Any medical bills, anything will not be paid.
Had the MIL lost the house, I think friend would have taken her in, like it or not, if there were no other options, but she would have insisted on a POA and have the security checks maybe signed over too. But POAs can be revoked–only reason my MIL signed one and I think she forgot about it due to the trauma of the surgery. Otherwise she would have revoked it the instant she found out I was paying HER bills.
I just wanted to thank you all for your thoughtful answers. I don’t have time to write much this morning but will catch up and respond later. I’m very grateful for your help.
I feel for the MIL. Not because I think OP owes her something, but just for the situation MIL is in. It’s tough for a lifestyle you are used to throughout your whole life to change completely, especially in retirement. People are wondering, why does MIL need $1,000. I am sure she had dreams of what her retirement would be (travel is a big dream for many people - I know it is for me - and she is in good health). And again, I am not saying that it makes it OP’s responsibility, I am just saying I really feel for MIL and not being able to live the life you wanted when it’s your last shot at doing so (it’s not like she is in her 20’s and has her whole life ahead of her - that’s a completely different situation to me). If I were 80, with no money to spare, except for necessities, knowing that I would live the rest of my life just being able to have enough money to survive (even if I did have a nice house and car and ‘things’, but no money to do anything) and maybe go out to dinner a few times a month, it would be very depressing and demoralizing mentally and emotionally. And I get that she should have planned better, but I still feel for her.
“What is the amount of credit card debt she has? Is it worth exploring debt settlement or bankruptcy? I dislike bankruptcy immensely from an ethical standpoint (I don’t like the idea that you just walk away from debt that you incurred), but we are having to go that route w my mother.”
This might be a route to completely shut her ability to acquire new lines of credit and pile on more debt. I doubt that even the most vicious loan shark would issue a credit card to a bankrupt 80 yr old lady.
So sorry you have to deal with this, zipyourlips and Pizzagirl.
I can understand how someone used to living a certain way for so long is not likely to change. Heck, curbing spending is difficult for anyone, and a serial spender of age 80–what can one expect? I don’t see much chance that such a person could stop that way of living unless she is unable to continue. Depressing, yes.
The one thing that I had an issue with my MIL being with us was how miserable she could make my DH feel. He loved her dearly and wanted to give her any and everything she wanted. That it was incompatible with getting things done and that we could not afford was the only reason he did not.
Both my mother and MIL were perfectly happy to do very little in the last few years. They would rather NOT spend a cent of their money and do nothing rather than spend money to do much of anything. Had to push to get them to go anywhere, buy anything, do anything.
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have had a very hard emotional time with not letting her “bottom out” because I feel guilty,
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I may have sounded more harsh than I intended. I didn’t mean “bottom out” in terms of being hungry or cold. What I meant is that when her savings gets down to - say - a few thousand, and she does the math and realizes that she can’t pay rent in 2 months, then she’s going to really seek your help. At THAT point, the bottom is there, and hopefully she’ll listen to reason because she’ll know that she can no longer fund her desires.
“I am just saying I really feel for MIL and not being able to live the life you wanted when it’s your last shot at doing so (it’s not like she is in her 20’s and has her whole life ahead of her - that’s a completely different situation to me).”
I don’t. I have periodic feelings like that, but the situations we are describing are the result of years of irresponsibility, of squandering, of never making tradeoffs/ choices, of never saying no to one’s own desires, of ignoring good counsel from more practical people, of not believing in delayed gratification, and of believing that money appears out of nowhere and isn’t the result of hard work and sacrifice that people make. And, like the OP, a big steaming pile of you-know-what has been dumped on the children. I would feel completely differently if this were the result of a medical issue that drained the finances, or a flood / fire / catastrophe. This was preventable.
Just a note about shopping…she doesn’t need to leave the house to do it. QVC is available even if she can’t use the interwebs.
M2CK - we’re pretty much at that point. Reason doesn’t matter. This is just an emotional relationship with money and with stuff. The OP’s MIL sounds very much like my mother, and there is what I call a false pride that “pride” is about having nice things and enjoying a certain lifestyle - when to me “pride” is about working hard and being self-sufficient.
Here are two examples:
I suggested to my mom that she should start a business walking dogs (she loves dogs and her neighborhood has plenty of young couples with dogs who need someone to walk during the day). She had too much “pride” to do that. Well, to me, “pride” would mean I’d go scrub toilets before I’d take money from my children.
I suggested to her that she sell pieces of jewelry. She doesn’t want to do that, because she has the “pride” of wanting her granddaughters to have these pieces of jewelry as remembrances. Neither granddaughter cares in the least about this jewelry.
I’m not articulating it well, but it’s a pride in maintaining a certain lifestyle that is at play here. And hey, I like a nice lifestyle as much as the next one, but it’s not my identity.
OP; What does you MIL spend her money on? In other words are there things that she bought that could be sold to pay for some of this? Jewelry, furniture, ?? Designer handbags and clothing could go to a consignment shop. This may be grasping at straws, but I feel for you in your no-win situation.
TatinG - having gone down this path - just be aware that you get very little return on this. I don’t disagree at all, just saying that it’s not the cash cow one might think.
The bigger thing is that it will be a mighty fight to get this MIL to start parting with her jewelry, furnishings, etc. A MIGHTY fight. I’ve been at it for a year and have made frustratingly little progress. The other thing is, you don’t want her thinking “now I sold those clothes, I have an extra $xx to play with.” As demeaning and awful as it is to enforce, she HAS to learn how to live within a budget, no matter how much she hates it, and think about the money gained from selling clothes, etc. as “money for a rainy day” versus “party tonight.”
I would think one of the challenges in the “bottoming out” strategy (which I generally agree with) is how to keep her from running up huge credit card debt. If she won’t give up her cards, I don’t know what you could legally do about that. I know I could rack up a lot of damage on my own if I were so inclined…
I have to tell you, the meetings that we have had with my mother on this were akin to the interventions one does with an alcoholic family member. They are sharp, pointed, painful - but you have to say what needs to be said, and what you are willing and not willing to do. The problem is indeed what someone else pointed out above - they know you’re never REALLY going to let them live in a cardboard box.
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they know you’re never REALLY going to let them live in a cardboard box.
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Right.
But what if she were warned that she wouldn’t be able to “live alone” and have her total freedom? Yes, you’re not going to let her be homeless, but that doesn’t mean that you’re going to fund a private home, cable TV, etc…
Even if she thought…My Dd’s aren’t going to make me live with them, what if she thought that you might make her get a roomie to share rent, etc.
Thankfully my mother manages to live within her means, but only does so because of the carrot she is dangling in front of herself. She says that if she has enough of her own money when the times comes to enter a nursing home, then she will be able to afford a single room and not have to deal with what she calls the “horrors” of a roommate.
“But what if she were warned that she wouldn’t be able to “live alone” and have her total freedom? Yes, you’re not going to let her be homeless, but that doesn’t mean that you’re going to fund a private home, cable TV, etc…”
Then I get the “well, I might as well just wither up and die - what you’re giving me is no life at all” (if I’m apart from my friends, don’t have the money to go out to dinner, etc.).
OP - perhaps I missed it - how much cc debt does the MIL have at this point? (obviously not sustainable)
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“But what if she were warned that she wouldn’t be able to “live alone” and have her total freedom? Yes, you’re not going to let her be homeless, but that doesn’t mean that you’re going to fund a private home, cable TV, etc…”
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Then I get the “well, I might as well just wither up and die - what you’re giving me is no life at all” (if I’m apart from my friends, don’t have the money to go out to dinner, etc.).
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@Pizzagirl
“What you’re giving me…”
Hmmm… She needs to take some ownership…she’s giving HERSELF no life at all.
Those words from suggest that she REALLY does think YOU’RE supposed to support her. Her words aren’t, “honey, I will be so grateful for any help you could give me.”
Could you get your mom to listen to a 3rd party? A therapist? A financial planner?
How old is your mom? is she too old for a part-time job of some sort?