<p>Jvj, I know that it seems unfair, and perhaps it is. However, you won’t ever be able to prove that. I assume that this school is one of your state’s “better” colleges. Such schools look at more than just the basic stats. The essay is important, and you don’t know that the same adcom didn’t read both your child’s essay and that of the other student. Other factors come into play, as well.</p>
<p>For an interesting insight into a state flagship U’s admissions process, you might try an internet search for the point system used by U of MI. When the whole race issue was being debated a couple years ago, the Detroit News/Detroit Free Press published the actual system … down to which high schools received how many points (and yes, how many points were assigned to legacies)! Even within that detailed system, however, there was much subjectivity … strength of ECs, strength of essays (content & writing ability), strength of recommendations, etc. There is simply no way to tell who will & who will not be accepted. </p>
<p>The process is an art, not a science. Every state has public schools that will accept students based simply on stats (both 4 year & 2 year), so no student can actually make the case that his ability to attend a school that his parents have supported with tax dollars has been compromised. There IS a school he can attend; it just may not be his first choice.</p>
<p>I do feel bad for your child, because I know it seems unfair. I am glad he will be attending a school he likes, though.</p>
<p>Different colleges give different weights to various components of the admissions process. For this reason, a student might very well be accepted to the flagship university of one state but rejected from another, seemingly similar university in another state.</p>
<p>A few years ago, this happened to a child of one of my neighbors. This student had an excellent GPA in a rigorous high school program but unimpressive SAT scores. He wanted to attend a large state university because of his interest in marching band. An admissions officer from our flagship state university flat-out told this student not to go to the trouble of applying because the university places a high weight on standardized test scores, and this student would have no chance of admission. The student went on to apply as an out-of-stater to several other flagship state universities. He was admitted to several and ended up attending one that U.S. News ranks substantially higher than our own state university. Presumably, those universities place a greater weight on the student’s transcript and a lower weight on SAT scores than our state university does. Either that or they needed people who play this student’s specific instrument for their marching bands.</p>
<p>If something like this affected the OP’s child’s admissions results, there really isn’t any cause for a lawsuit, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Your SON could write a letter to admissions asking about his application.</p>
<p>To be honest, I think you’ll probably spend at least one years’ tuition on your lawsuit. Colleges are looking for a balanced CLASS not just at each individual application or student. It is possible that the others had things to bring to the overall class that your child didn’t have. As pointed out, colleges can admit anyone they choose to admit. It becomes increasingly more apparent each year that the admissions are based on complex and multiple factors. Surely your state had another public university where your child could have applied and been accepted (oh…I know…not top 25, yada, yada, yada), but I suspect that your claim that you will now be paying OOS tuition and fees would be met with the “why didn’t your kid apply to X?” response. </p>
<p>What do you hope to gain by this lawsuit? The reality is that at a LARGE state university there WILL be multiple people reviewing application credentials. The suits sited above (UMich and UGA) were discrimination suits. That is a very different thing than saying “my kid had higher stats than his classmate who got accepted” without knowing for certain what those other students might be contributing to balance out that class. NOTE…I’m not saying your child didn’t have something to contribute.</p>
<p>Folks - I am gratified at the response that this thread has generated. Thanks also for the private messages. It seems clear from the posts that a lawsuit may not have much of a chance. I intend pursuing this matter further with the school in question for whatever it is worth (I cannot name the school here for fear of causing distress to my child - even though some of you may have your own ideas on what schools I am talking about) and also perhaps with some lawyer friends I know. I am sure as I have said earlier that the school and the admissions officers acted in good faith in pursuing whatever admissions policy that the school’s overall policies dictated.
The net fact however remains - an upset parent (more an upset parent than an upset child). Maybe because I have to fork out the dollars - but also because the system in my view at times (several times) is not foolproof.
Honestly, I am not sure which system is better - a system that is “holistic” and by its very nature more subjective or a system that emphasizes academics and test scores as the main indicators of future performance. Everyone can and will have their own views on this topic.
I will post again later if I hear or learn anything else that may be of use to Parents and others in this forum. Thanks again.</p>
<p>jack:
I agree that some schools with 50-50 gender balance might be denying more women than men, and I would think that some that are 60-40 skewed toward women might STILL be denying more women. I’ve done informal counting of some top public urban high-school achievers, and these last couple of years I’m seeing lots of ethnic diversity, but an increasing portion of women in the top ranks – two-thirds to three-fourths.
But there are other colleges, mainly schools known for engineering programs, that still seem to have a large number of male applicants vs. female. While women have come a long way in the last generation or two, apparently a cultural stereotype of “the slide-rule engineer” is still keeping some young women away, even though they’re flocking to pre-med. and pre-law.
Meanwhile, brochures and emails for engineering schools keep arriving at my house, and it appears young women would do well to consider these kinds of schools, if they can only buck the cultural stereotypes. Probably won’t happen in my child’s particular case, but perhaps some other young women will see there’s a door open there. That’s probably a better phrase than “safe bet.”</p>
<p>To expand on jack discussing North Carolina, here’s the line from the state Constitution:
Article IX, Section 9:
The General Assembly shall provide that the benefits of The University of North Carolina and other public institutions of higher education, as far as practicable, be extended to the people of the State free of expense.</p>
<p>So for that state, legislators have loosely interpreted “as far as practicable.”…And as long as some state college would admit a particular student, I assume they’re free of lawsuits even if they can’t get into Chapel Hill. The line has been used in the past as well to justify a cap in the percentage of out-of-state students at Chapel Hill, though the rule has been stretched for some scholarship recipients. That in itself has caused some controversy.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion…your CHILD is more likely to get responses about his college application than you (the parent) are. Most colleges communicate will only communicate with students regarding college related issues. They are very unlikely to communicate with anyone else…unless you are able to secure a release from your child to do so…in writing. </p>
<p>Honestly, I know you are upset, and I do understand some of why you are upset. But in my opinion…let it go. This issue should not be yours. It should be your child’s. And if your child wishes to pursue this admissions issue, let him try to. As someone else pointed out, if the student REALLY wants to attend that in-state public that much, then he should strive to do well and apply as a transfer student in a year…or two. </p>
<p>As an aside…what would happen if the university suddenly said they would admit your child? Would he transfer there or would he enroll at the OOS public? From what you’ve posted here, the student has already made HIS decision. A this point, it’s an upset parent, not an upset student. And believe me…you are not the only parent who is upset about the college admissions (and add into that finaid awards…merit in particular) outcomes. Let it go.</p>
<p>purplexed: Agree about your earlier post about women and engineering, though I think that’s a slightly different topic than what we were talking about earlier.</p>
<p>Also, that quote is interesting. Over the years, I’ve heard variations of that, and always thought the phrase, “as far as practicable,” meant in terms of expense/tuition. But actually reading it here, it sounds a bit more ambiguous than that. At any rate, that’s in the State Constitution and directed to the NC General Assembly. The University’s mission statement itself mentions that the “University of NC is a public, multi-campus university dedicated to the service of NC and its people.” It then goes on to mention the “16 diverse constituent institutions . . . each sharing in the overall mission of the University.”</p>
<p>My guess is, all public universities have somewhat similar mission statements (with no promises to the state flagship). </p>
<p>At any rate, I agree with others who have suggested that your (the OP’s) son call his public university to determine the reasons for his denial. If they are willing to talk with him (and I can’t imagine they wouldn’t be), that could be very illuminating.</p>
<p>Actually the University of Michigan lost the undergraduate case and in fact they did do exactly what curmdgeon says nobody does i.e. reduce the application to an index with an arbitrary cut off. Basically Michigan lost that case (as opposed to the law school case) because they gave too large a numerical boost to URM’s and gave it irrespective of any other mitigating circumstances. For instance the current Attorney General’s children would get the same number of extra points that a poor kid from the barrio would get.</p>
<p>Anyway I am sure you could litigate it. Those nebulous comparisons of extra-curricular’s weighed and measured by admissions are “facts”. A jury makes determination of facts as well. If the school says those are what made the difference then they have to be able to explain the why and how and a jury could then make their own determination.</p>
<p>That said though I wouldn’t bother unless you think you were the victim of some systematic discrimination. Most likely the applications simply passed through different readers hands at different times in the process.</p>
<p>“The school is trying to build a class of individuals and it’s not something you can fit into a grid. If they already have 10 violin players maybe they will prefer a drummer. It’s not all about numbers.”</p>
<p>If that is the case then the admissions office should be able to explain that so and so was turned down because we were looking for a drummer. Holistic admissions is NOT an excuse for a lack of transparency in the process. More likely the lack of transparency is evidence that the university is embarrassed by the criteria they are using and don’t want to admit what they are doing.</p>
<p>“The only explanation available is usually not easy on the ears for many parents: “This year, we thought that other kid would be a better fit for what we were trying to accomplish in building this class and our legislature has afforded us the discretion to make that determination in keeping with our goals and policy statements.””</p>
<p>And what specifically were you lookinh for in building this class that candidate A had and candidate B lacked is a question that the university ought to be able to transparently answer. If a country club wants to admit members on the basis of how many freckles they have that is fine but I don’t think that when the state legislature extended the university latitude in building a class in keeping with their goals and policies that would have been one of the criteria they thought they were voting for.</p>
<p>“You would probably lose based on the fact that there is no open admission based on specific requirements and therefore there is nothing inherently wrong in them choosing who they want to.”</p>
<p>Actually I believe that under no circumstances would the lawyers for the university advise their client to submit to the discovery process. They would however be prepared to throw up every legal roadblock imaginable to keep it from getting that far.</p>
<p>My guess is if the lawyers for the university determined you had the means and the will to pursue the case the university would quickly decide they made a mistake in your particular and offer admission which would obviate your grounds for suing.</p>
<p>“Jvj, I know that it seems unfair, and perhaps it is. However, you won’t ever be able to prove that.”</p>
<p>BTW you don’t have to prove anything in a civil case. The standard is preponderence of the evidence. If the jury decides your evidence is even ever so slightly better than they other sides evidence then they are bound to determine in you favour.</p>
<p>higherlead that Michigan case was then . I was asked about now. I answered about 2007. As in “But that 's not what they do”. Speaking about now. Had I wanted to include the Michigan case , I would have said “But that’s not what they do now and it’s not what they did then.” It’s a “do” “did” thing. Do-did. I value precise language.</p>
<p>higherlead, that is confusing the issue a little. The burden of proof in “most” civil cases, not “all” mind you, but “most” is in fact a preponderance of the evidence . The P has the burden to prove by the greater weight of the credible evidence each and every element of their cause of action.</p>
<p>Precision in language is a good thing curr so maybe it is more accurate to say that there are not schools practicing holistic admissions that will actually admit to what their admission standards are. They could be using an index for a cutoff and then applying “holistic” methodology or they could be obly admitting people with less than 3 vowels in their last name because they had a surfeit last year. The great thing about holistic admissions is you never have to say your are sorry and you never have to explain unless someone can get you under oath.</p>
I value precise language.</p>