<p>Normally I would encourage this shoot lawyers line of thought but my son has decided to go to law school. Could we maybe spend 3 years culling the herd and then call a moratorium?</p>
<p>I suspect lawyers are harder to kill than mummies.</p>
<p>All the unbridled confidence in university admissions offices is surprising to me. If it were the government making such incongruous determinations, people would be sure that some conspiracy was afoot. With universities, it’s assumed that they have grand plans in mind that we’re too simple to understand. Why such confidence in the universities? I agree with higherlead. A state university should be able to give clear reasons for their decisions. If they can’t—something’s wrong.</p>
<p>Er-- is it just me, or maybe the kid in question didn’t get all the papers in on time; had a bad teacher’s rec; the guidance counselors report which should have been sent to college A and B ended up being sent twice to college B and not once to college A? Before assuming a giant conspiracy theory, maybe it’s just a paperwork error or that all was not as rosy as a parent assumes? Before you sue, maybe your kid can just make a nice phone call to see if the file was ever completed accurately?</p>
<p>From a 3/2 article <a href=“http://insidehighered.com/news/2007/03/02/holistic[/url][quote]The”>http://insidehighered.com/news/2007/03/02/holistic
The article then mentions an aryan brotherhood member and a sucidal appliant. Neither of any interest or bearing here (and in fact I didn’t see why they were in the article at all. ).</p>
<p>I am wondering when in the admissions cycle the OP’s student applied to the school in question, and the same for the other student whose (relative) credentials she is questioning.</p>
<p>State schools generally operate on a rolling admissions basis; borderline students who apply early in the admissions cycle are more likely to receive a positive decision than later in the year when the the class is partly-to-mostly full . The OP’s student could just have been squeezed out in a scenario like this.</p>
<p>The other thing that has occurred to me is what major the OP’s student and the other student each put on their applications, if any. That could also have had an impact on the decision. Was the admitted student admitted because he/she applied to a major that did not attract as many applications? Or did the OP’s student apply to a very competitve major, for example, EE at the University of Illinois?</p>
<p>University of Georgia was sued several years ago by students who were white when they gave preference to lower performing minorities. The Supreme Court of Georgia ruled I believe that UGA could no longer use race as a factor.
Probably the most famous decision in this area is Bake back in the late 70’s on reverse discrimination. I would say that it depends on the state where you live and what the admissions criteria are as to whether you can sue…You may not receive damages as they may have immunity but the student might gain admission to the university, have attorney’s fees paid and set a precedent for the future.</p>
<p>Higherlead mentions this “lack of transparency” by the unnamed public school in this debate. Correct me if I’m wrong, but did the OP say that he/she had already contacted the admissions office and questioned them? I gather that hasn’t been the case, so no “lack of transparency,” yet. Again, I’d certainly have the son call, though–not the parent.</p>
<p>blossom: No, you’re not the only one. I hadn’t thought of papers not being filed on time, but I had considered the “not as rosy” scenario. I do think that the OP’s suggestion that the other kids in question had less extracurriculars than his/her own kid, is also a subjective statement. And I’m sure the OP didn’t get to read all the recommendation letters; essays; what about legacies? I suspect there might be more going on here, too.</p>
<p>“I am wondering when in the admissions cycle the OP’s student applied to the school in question”</p>
<p>Good question. It might have been a Friday afternoon and the reader might have had too big a stack to get through so rejected them all. </p>
<p>Everybody here is speculating on what was wrong with the students so I thought thought I would balance out the speculation by questioning what might be wrong in the admissions department. That is what is wonderful about any decision making process that takes place behind closed doors by people totally shielded from the consequences of their decisions and with no fixed criteria.</p>
<p>Again holistic and transparent are not incompatable. Of course it might be a little embarassing to tell a specific taxpayer that you as a state employee looked at A’s app and B’s app and found them pretty much identical but instead of tossing a coin you decided to pick the one whose family has been in the country the shortest or the one whose parents haven’t been to college. Why might you find that hard? I don’t know why if your conscience is clear. Certainly though both taxpayers are entitled to an explanation of why they were admitted or why they were rejected.</p>
<p>higherlead, I’m sure at the end of the pile some direct head to head comparisons are made. But you seem to think that there will be “the” identifiable kid that got in instead of the OP’s kid. That has got to be a rare occurence. At a medium size state school like UNC or UVA, there are 5,000 “the” kids who were selected from the qualified applicant pool , aren’t there? Why concentrate on one? Which one? Does it always have to be the one you think it is ? Maybe the Chinese kid was the one that knocked somebody’s kid out and they had a higher stat base. Why isn’t that a possibility?</p>
<p>curr - ah but my point is every applicant is entitled to know the reason why he or she did not meet the admission requirement this year. There must be some particular reason for every acceptence or rejection. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the reason for a rejection or acceptance is unarticulatable? I guess it is like pornography you cannot define it but you know it when you see it? </p>
<p>If you are the admission officer the plaintifs attorney is going to have a field day with you.</p>
<p>EEEK … I am glad I no longer work in admissions!!! I would feel as if I had a target on my back.</p>
<p>If the adcom answered the question of why jvj’s kid was rejected while his classmate was accepted, I think the adcom might really be in a pickle … he/she would be speaking about a particular student, and THAT would be a breech of privacy.</p>
<p>I once was on a hiring committee for k-8 teachers. Very seldom did we get asked by unsuccessful applicants why they had not gotten the position. But someone I knew was a close friend of an unsuccessful applicant who was a long-time sub in another school. She phoned me to ask why her friend had not been selected. There were things I felt I could say, and things I thought would be hurtful to share. I could and did say that the successful applicant (in social studies) could get up to speed more quickly with our curriculum because she had experience with its subject matter. The unsuccessful applicant was very knowledgeable about something else. What I decided not to say was that I had once visited her classroom, and it was chaotic. While she was passionate about teaching her stuff, she was less successful in creating a classroom atmosphere conducive to learning. Even when no breach of privacy is involved, there are things that are better left unsaid. Even when claiming to want the unvarnished truth, many people don’t actually want to hear it when it is given to them.</p>
<p>I don’t know what would be gained by an applicant already admitted somewhere else to know details such as “your GC wrote a lukewarm letter” or “the essay was boring” or “your ECs were ho-hum” or “we had so many qualified applicants and could not admit all of them” or “we did not need any more violin players; you’d have had more luck if you’d played the tuba.”
Better move on.</p>
<p>If you are the admission officer the plaintifs attorney is going to have a field day with you.</p>
<p>Nope, higherlead. That wouldn’t happen. The only thing the denied applicant is entitled to know is they didn’t fit in this year’s quilt. They have no right to a specific reason. And certainly not a quantifiable one to a process that by its very nature is not quantifiable, and not intended to be. Try again.</p>
<p>Would the admissions officers even remember why one kid got the nod and the other didn’t? Do they actually write down a record of their thought processes? I doubt it. I could barely keep 8 colleges straight - I can’t imagine trying to do the same with thousands of applicants.</p>
<p>“I could barely keep 8 colleges straight - I can’t imagine trying to do the same with thousands of applicants.”</p>
<p>LOL! You’re exactly right, Mathmom.</p>
<p>JVJ - I think what is most difficult about this (besides having to fork out more money as an out of state student) is that the whole process can be so arbitrary. I think that as a generation we have really beat the drum on the whole idea that if you work hard, then good things will happen. While that is true, we forget to mention that so many things are random and occur because of luck, good fortune, political trend of the moment. We really get bogged down when things aren’t fair - and the decision about your son probably wasn’t “fair.” I am happy to hear that he has adjusted. You should pat yourself on the back for raising a resilient child. Ultimately, that will be more important than where he went to school. </p>
<p>Also - while some responders are trying to figure what may have been wrong with your son’s app, it may have been nothing. Our D was accepted at all her toughest schools - but waitlisted at one of her safer schools. If there had been anything wrong with her app - the others wouldn’t have accepted her. So - go figure. For her it was a painless lesson, but a lesson nonetheless.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon (post #73 and others in this thread)–you couldn’t be more correct.</p>
<p>I’ve been a practicing civil litigator for 28 years, and, while I sympathize with the OP for having to pay additional money to send her son OOS, unless her son has been denied admission based on a violation of clear written standards (as in everyone gets in with a 28 on the ACT…except you), or has been clearly and demonstrably discriminated against because of factors such as race, sex, religion, etc., a lawsuit against the University for rejecting your son and accepting others has zero chance to succeed. Zero. In contrast to some of the posts in this thread which suggest that a school will have to explain the reason that it rejected the OPs son (and, by implication, admitted others in his stead) or “plaintiff’s lawyer will have a field day”, there is absolutely nothing in the law which requires such an explanation, and an explanation, if given, could very well violate privacy requirements. It is preposterous to suggest that a school (or a business making employment decisions, to use an analogy) has to justify its decisions to anyone who believes he/she/their child is more worthy than another candidate–theoretically, this could involve hundreds, or thousands of explanations (and potential lawsuits if someone doesn’t like the explanation) as to each person who doesn’t get in.</p>
<p>To the OP–if any lawyer tells you that you should bring this suit, please, please run away as fast as you can. Civil litigation is expensive, time consuming, and enormously stressful. It is not meant to be used in this type of circumstances. People rip lawyers as perpetuating frivilous litigation–here’s one who would strongly urge you to avoid being part of such a process.</p>
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<p>Colleges usually do not look for reasons to reject; they look for reasons to accept. And the reasons vary from college to college.</p>
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dadtimesthree, thanks for the support. I’m at 27 years as of 5/26, not always litigation. I’m catching you. 
Sometimes posting here is like litigating against a talented pro-se - you know you are right, but dang they can make your life miserable for a while. ;)</p>
<p>Keep in mind that most students waive their right to see letters of recommendations from teachers, which implies that their contents should not be communicated by an adcom. I suspect the enthusiasm of their support has considerable impact, especially at selective schools.</p>