<p>20%?? I think UofT is one of only a few that are THAT brutal
I’ve normally heard 10%-ish drops.</p>
<p>So … are there any kind of students that ARE well-prepared for uni :S</p>
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<p>Not at all. No school is interested in attaining attrition. And if you look at the graduation rates, this point isn’t valid. Yes, the grading is tougher in Canada than the US, but so what? Being pushed means you probably learn more. </p>
<p>As someone who reads many a transcript for graduate school applications, I know for a fact that U of T puts your course grade on your transcript, right next to the CLASS AVERAGE. Every school should do that. And trust me, people can read. Just because you aren’t getting your highschool grades does not mean ‘you fail’…you just have to adjust your expectations. Be assured, employers and grad schools are not expecting what you are expecting. This just isn’t highschool. Grade inflation helps no one.</p>
<p>That’s another thing, at my school to get an A you need to have above a 90, in Canada you “just” need to be above an 80. Also, I’m in a number of courses that are marked on a curve, so your grade is determined based entirely on how you do relative to other people who got into a top school. In other words, I think it’s a lot easier to get a very high GPA at a Canadian school.</p>
<p>@LOLhere, I don’t have any grounds to make my comment, but I’m just assuming that a highly-driven student would make opportunities for him/herself. </p>
<p>@JonoWono, I guess that’s what part of the debate is. starbright commented that Canadian schools grade more harshly than US schools, but then again, the US schools need >90 for A’s v. >80 for A’s at Western, etc. So, I think it’s a bit hairy to try to compare where it is easier to get better grades because in the US is varies a lot from school to school (getting >90 at a state school is probably easier than >90 at a top 10 school). We can discuss this though because I’m interested to hear what is said.</p>
<p>@starbright: If we’re talking about Engineering Science at U of T, it’s actually that brutal. Everyone I know who’s in that program either a) studies all day or b) copies off other people to pass. </p>
<p>With that said, the class average isn’t always the best indicator as well. The Engineering Science program has an entering average of 92% (and that’s a 92% in the Canadian grade scale), and they curve the class average so that it’s in the 70’s (so that’s how I got the 20% drop). But the truth is that everyone I know who switched out of the program saw their averages rise by 10% (so we’re talking about a whole grade point average)… </p>
<p>Even an Engineering Science prof admitted that they make the tests so hard so that people would drop out of the program. </p>
<p>“Grade inflation helps no one.” => Tell that to someone who legitimately does all his homework, studies all day, and still can’t get a 3.5+. I’ve heard of another guy who did 8+ AP’s in high school (and got good scores) and still can’t get a 3.3 in the program. Okay, fine, maybe you’re saying that in grad school and in the real world, people do cheat off each other anyways, so it really doesn’t matter whether you cheated through university to get your grades? </p>
<p>@StarsAligned: There’s a logical reason why the average drop is only 10%. At other universities, the entering average is 10% lower, but the class averages remain the same (if not higher) >.<</p>
<p>Jonowono-- Matching up percentage and letter grades is meaningless when comparing across schools (but especially across countries). As a professor, I can tell you that it doesn’t really matter if a prof curves or not-- they can either disregard the difficulty of the questions and curve it accordingly after the fact, or make the exam to ensure a particular mean (after just a few years, you can almost nail it exactly depending upon what content you use). My point being, in reality, everyone is graded relative to others, whether one is aware of it or not. </p>
<p>As a professor who taught about 10 years at several top US schools, and now more recently at a well regarded Canadian uni for the past 12 years, I can tell you that grades across the countries are not readily comparable. Grade inflation, for the most part, is a big issue in the US, and still far far less so in Canada (that is true in both the highschool and post secondary level). They may look the same, but they are apples and oranges. Anyone seen gradeinflation.com? But to think anyone who matters isn’t aware of this is silly. Of course the know-- grades vary by school and by major–and its taken into account. </p>
<p>LOL: I’m not sure your point about averages. No one cares about highschool averages. On your university transcript, one will see your grade for the course, and beside that the class average. You are judged relative to the context. That is a big positive for you, and not something available to most others. Moreover, anyone who matters knows that U of T has different grading standards, engineering is almost always 10% or more below other majors at the same school (at Queens, because I’ve seen the data- the entering grade isa bout 84% and the average is around 70% in first year), and eng-science majors (be it UBC, U of T, Queens) are extremely challenging and the grades reflect this. </p>
<p>I just suggest you stop worrying about the actual grades, or at least using yoru HS as a reference point. No one (well except freshman) ever using their HS grades to reference their performance in university. HS vary dramatically in terms of their grading standards (especially when you have such different educational curriculums by province). It simply doesn’t make sense to do so. I think once you get over this, you will be a lot more satisfied with your university experience. </p>
<p>Let me give you an example, to get into your program, you need say what- at least a 90% highschool grade? Well you don’t need a 90% in university to pursue your PhD- not at all. </p>
<p>But I was taking issue with your conspiracy theory that U of T has some master plan to take first year tuition and get rid of most students. It simply is not borne out by the data. And ake any professor’s comments with a grain of salt. Such a comment made is just one way to get you off their back. And think about it: there is no need to grade harshly if your goal is simply to weed people out-- you can make any kind of arbitrary rules about who gets to stay (you could grade easily but say you need a 90% average if you want to). </p>
<p>The real goal of any program is the belief that all students graduating from that program, come out with particular abilities and skills. Those abilities and skills reflect and protect the quality, reputation and integrity of that particular degree. That is achieved by setting the bar at a particular level throughout. Professors, who actually determine and maintain these standards, could not care less nor benefit from ‘taking first year tuition’. </p>
<p>As for your other arguments, I really don’t follow you. Do you really need to be told about the invalidity of rumors about a friend of a friend? Not to mention, there is a reason AP doesnt’ count for credit in most eng. programs. As for your cheating comment, have no idea what you are talking about.</p>
<p>“I think once you get over this, you will be a lot more satisfied with your university experience.”</p>
<p>Umm… I hope you’re right on this. I brought up the high school grades to try to illustrate why class averages isn’t the best indicator either.
So in my program, I’m competing with the top students from high school. However, even though the students are much brighter in general, the class averages are not much higher than in other Engineering classes. Therefore, it is much harder to get a higher gpa in my program than in another program. People who are smart enough to switch out of my program generally see their gpa’s rise by 10% (i.e., one whole grade point average). </p>
<p>I don’t see how I can get into a grad program with a 70, but if I switch out right now (and I did), then my gpa would be closer to a 80 (which gives me a much better shot at grad school). However, it doesn’t work if one just compares the mark with the class average. Although the class averages in both programs hover around a 75, the same student would get a significantly different mark in the two programs (because it’s a matter of competing with the top students from high school vs. “average” students from high school). </p>
<p>“Not to mention, there is a reason AP doesnt’ count for credit in most eng. programs.”</p>
<p>Interestingly, when I compare exams between Engineering and Sciences, Engineering exams aren’t always harder than the Science ones. E.g., Calculus, Physics… (I’m not taking Chem or Bio in first year, so can’t comment on that) </p>
<p>I’ll respond to the other points if I find time.</p>
<p>To connect everything that has already been discussed…</p>
<p>I’m waiting on my decisions from HYPS and Penn/Columbia/Duke, but I have already been admitted to McGill’s biological/biomedical/life sciences group, U of T’s Engineering Science program and U of T’s Life Sciences program. McGill offered an automatic $3k first-year scholarship, and U of T Engineering gave me a $5k scholarship.</p>
<p>With that in mind, my total cost (tuition, student fees, residence without meal plan) for going to U of T Engineering Science will be approximately $2000-$3000 for first year since I have a tuition grant from my mother, who works at the university. After first year, I would only have to pay student fees to the university, since I hope to find an apartment off-campus.</p>
<p>Most people reading this at this point will tell me it’s pointless to go for the $50k tuition+costs at a place like Duke or Princeton. I don’t think it is – first, the financial aid program at HYP + Penn and Columbia are generous enough to be need-blind AND full-need for Canadian citizens. That means many of us, if admitted, may have to pay roughly the same amount as we would for a place like U of T, Queen’s or Western.</p>
<p>I know from alumni of my high school who have matriculated at U of T that many programs are extremely competitive, especially in the engineering faculty. Students admitted with 90%+ averages in all-AP courses do work very hard to maintain their marks in first-year. However, in engineering, the GPA curve is generous, with 85%-100% equivalent to a 4.0 for each course, and the professors are willing to adjust their final marks to compensate for the difficulty.</p>
<p>I also know, from the parent who works at U of T, that the university focuses a lot on research and graduate-level education, and not as much on undergraduate education – class sizes (in the arts and science college, not in engineering) tend to run into the hundreds, and are often taught by TAs and other non-professors. *If you’re looking for smaller classes and more interaction with the people who are doctorate-bearing professors, go to Princeton if you can; that’s rare at big research universities in Canada.[/]</p>
<p>Although there are plenty of opportunities for undergraduates and even high school students to get involved with research, a larger university (U of T has 6x as many undergraduates as Yale, for example) means insane competition to seize those spots. In Canada, if you’re looking for a ‘smaller’ university where you can avoid this competition, it’s difficult to find one of the same academic calibre as McGill, UBC or U of T. Admittedly, some of the top universities in the States have a greater proportion of academically motivated and capable students, which may also make it difficult to get the opportunities that are offered. However, I personally believe that places like Yale offer a better balance between availability of opportunities for research, and an academically strong student body.</p>
<p>If the cost of a US undergraduate education is comparable, or not insanely more expensive after financial aid estimates, it seems pretty clear to me that I would want to take the US offer. If the cost after financial aid is still significantly more than the regular cost of going to U of T (~$20k for artsci), it would depend on what my goal is: since I want to go to graduate/professional school in the States, where financial aid is not generous or non-existent, it might make more sense to save some money now and spend it on med/law/grad school later.</p>
<p>You’re free to disagree with my analysis and my opinions. I merely described my own reasoning for considering the States despite the higher sticker price.</p>
<p>^ great post.</p>
<p>For me, excluding HYPC, it will come down to how much finaid I get.
Queen’s is giving me a great price for one of the best undergrad biz educations in Canada. I could likely graduate debt-free without asking my parents for anything. That just wouldn’t happen with Dartmouth, Brown, etc.</p>
<p>@LOLhere…if your in engineering science goodluck, from what ive heard that course is insane…switch into one of the core eight while you still can…</p>