CCM Drama is a cut program

theatredadtx · October 19, 2012, 1:14pm

If you ask them they will avoid the subject or deny that they are a cut program, but the truth is that the CCM drama program is a cut program. They call it non-retention, but it is the same thing.

Typically, they start with 20 kids in the program as freshman. Typically, there may be 10-15 kids there at the end. Most of these kids do not decide to leave. They are not retained.

In addition, they like to highlight the LA and NYC showcases. Well, just because you get through the program does not mean that you will get to participate in the Showcase.

Its a good program, but they should be more honest and direct about the facts.

TheRealKEVP · October 20, 2012, 6:20am

I can see why you are saying “this is a cut program”, even though technically it isn’t.

For example, the law school I went to had very low standards for admission, but once we got in it had very high standards for retention. However, if every student could individually meet those high standards, then every student would be retained. Of course in practice that didn’t happen, and each term there were many students who couldn’t work to the level required and who were not retained.

I think that CCM would say the same thing. They would probably retain every student if every student worked to their high standards. This is technically different from a “cut” program, where they automically cut the students at the bottom, and so there is no way that every student would be retained.

But I agree with you that people who apply should be aware of this.

KEVP

skewlcounselor · October 20, 2012, 11:10pm

It seems that I am one of a minority who think a program that holds to high standards and releases students who don’t quite make the cut is actually a very good thing. For one, if one student in a small program has poor attendance or a bad attitude it could negatively affect the entire company. In that case, it is best for everyone that the actor is excused from the program. Also, if you are spending upwards of $100K for a degree, you want that degree to be worth something. If a program is graduating students who are not up to par with their talent or work ethic, their reputation affects the reputation of every other graduate. I, for one, hope my child gets into a program that has exceptionally high standards and holds everyone to that standard.

Gwen_Fairfax · October 21, 2012, 11:43am

There’s a lot to consider about “cut” programs-- and I have a feeling you can’t tell much about them individually until you’ve lived through one. I’ve known young actors who really suffered from the kind of competition induced at a strict “cut” program-- it makes friendships difficult and deeds an immense amount of power to professors who may be less interested in the risktaking of art and more interested in their own egos.

On the other hand-- there are students who enter BFA programs with no idea of what they’re getting into, and there are students who, talented as they may be, don’t work hard, don’t make a positive contribution to a group, etc. A program that cares to weed these people out may really be doing it for the good of the other students.

I’m not sure how much any student can know before he/she starts in a program. But a really thorough accepted student visit is maybe the most important aspect of this process. Once you see where you’ve been accepted-- go to the school, talk to the students, the faculty, go to a class if you possibly can. Ask them about their policies in detail-- and listen to the tone of the answer. Of course you want to be held to high standards and surrounded by committed, inspiring people. You don’t want to be subjected to destructive criticism by teachers whose egos feed on such stuff.

ActingDad · October 22, 2012, 3:46pm

I agree with skewlcounselor that this would not fit my definition of a cut program. There have been posts previously about Purchase and other schools about kids who are told they are not measuring up to the program’s standards. The difference is that those schools don’t appear to go in with any fixed goal of reducing by x%. If all the kids are top notch, they’ll be happy to keep all of them. Emerson – on the other hand is a cut – they have a fixed number that are going to be told are not cotinuing regardless of the quality of the class. My daughter is not applying to Emerson for that reason. That to me seems very unhealthy. However, the notion that kids who are not measuring up to the demands are asked to leave is something different.

I also think its a very fair point that its very hard to know if schools are applying such a standard fairly without actually being in the school.

cean678 · October 31, 2012, 4:37pm

You’re right people do get “Cut” from CCM but it is not a “cut program”. Cut programs are programs that have a quota of how many students they need to finish with, i.e. we start with 25 but need to finish with 18 – CCM IS NOT THIS. They reserve the right to cut you if you are: not doing your work/not taking the program seriously or not up to the standard that you need to be for this profession (which is a GOOD THING because if you really don’t have “it” and they recognize that again and again, they do not want to do you a disservice by making you pay and train for 4 yrs for something that you really aren’t cut out for).
Also this will not come out of nowhere. The faculty will tell you a semester in advance if they are considering not asking you back, and you are given the semester to get your **** together or withdraw. That’s why you have boards your first two years.
And just fyi, if you make it to your senior year, you have a spot in the showcase. I am very close with people at this program and every showcase I’ve seen pictures of (3 yrs now) and the one I saw, have the entire class in it. 
In the senior class at CCM Drama I think two people were cut. In the junior I think four were. The sophomore class has had no one cut. 
So, yes you can get cut from ccm. but they do not want to cut anyone, they will do it out of necessity. And if you are a Senior Drama student you HAVE A GUARANTEED SPOT in the showcase-- that’s why they do have the retention, so that everyone they are graduating they feel confident about.

connections · October 31, 2012, 7:36pm

I think this is an interesting and valid discussion and one I’ve been curious about for a while. It seems like there are different tiers of ‘cuts’ and I would like people to chime in to clarify things. I realize that technically a ‘cut’ is when you have a quota, say, 15 people have to graduate, and we admit 25 to start. And most programs don’t seem to do that anymore. But isn’t there something more subtle going on when you ‘ask’ people to leave a program? Think about it: In any other college major or program, the only way you’d be ‘asked’ to leave is if you were failing classes or doing something illegal. And there are very clearly defined ways of doing that–you do x, y, z & q in your math class, and if you do all those things so and so level, you get a B, or a C or an F. It’s above board and transparent and clear and evenly applied to everyone, and if it isn’t - if you are given a D when you did B work because the professor just doesn’t like fat girls - you have a legal case or at the very least there’s an appeals process that is also transparent and spelled out.

But at CCM - or anyplace that does something similar- it strikes me as MUCH less transparent and I think that’s what people are talking about.

Are the people who are ‘asked’ to leave aware from the get go, the very beginning, exactly what the rules are that will force them out? Is the system transparent, WRITTEN down, documented? Is there an option if you feel you are asked to leave really because you got too fat or some other girls spread nasty rumors about you, rather than anything you did? That is, what EXACTLY are the criteria for someone 'asked ’ to leave and are there any recourses if you feel the decision is unfair or unethical?

I’m not talking about the obvious–kids who don’t go to class or don’t do the work. And it seems that there are some schools that, even if they don’t have a quota, still have a nebulous, non-transparent system in which you can be ‘asked’ to leave that may or may not be applied equally and fairly to everyone, that therefore may be susceptible to backstabbing, rumors, personal dislike or likes, racial/ethical/religious biases, etc; and in which you have absolutely no recourse, no higher person to appeal to or make your case. Which is absolutely devastating and an extraordinary waste of money.

So could people speak to that? It seems that there are still some programs - I read them online - in which they openly state that you have to be ‘asked’ to move on to the next level, ‘asked’ each year, or ‘asked’ at the end of so and so year. And I have NEVER seen the criterion written out transparently. Is this true?

Gwen_Fairfax · October 31, 2012, 10:29pm

Well, what I’ve heard at D’s school is that it has more to do with attitude and one’s contribution to the ensemble. If you’re not pulling your weight, not giving your all in class and rehearsal, and if you have a negative or hypercritical or arrogant attitude, they’re going to work with you at first but eventually you’ll be asked to leave. Since every class is its own ensemble, one bad apple can spoil the bunch.

Syracuse said that they have to live up to an industry standard and you’ll be asked to repeat coursework if necessary or leave if you can’t work at that standard. They want it to be known that you can trust their name. I can’t really imagine anyone as serious as these kids seem to be, being cut or counseled to leave. I suspect it’s more that kids get into acting party because it seems like a fun and easy major—when they realize the level of dedication and effort necessary, some will change their minds.

MichaelNKat · October 31, 2012, 11:39pm

This topic has been discussed extensively on the MT forum and if you do a search there for “cut programs” or some variation thereof, several threads will pop up. To summarize concisely:

<ol>
<li>There are programs that cut to a predetermined number. They will accept and matriculate more students than the school intends to keep and then at the end of t he freshman and/or sophomore year, a student must go through some type of screening process (juries, re-audition etc) and is ranked against other students. Regardless of how you stand qualitatively in absolute terms, if your relative ranking is below the the number of students to be retained, you are cut. </li>
<li>Some schools require students to reaudition after freshman and/or sophomore year and compete all over for a spot against new applicants, transfer students and existing students. Regardless of how the student performed in the program to date, regardless of the student’s grades, a student can be displaced.</li>
<li>Some schools have a 1 shot set of juries that must be passed with a certain score after freshman or sophomore year in order to advance to upper level classes. Regardless of the student’s grades and past performance, if the student doesn’t pass the juries, the student is eliminated from the program.</li>
<li>Some schools have juries that must be passed to advance to upper level classes and if a student doesn’t pass the juries, the student is given opportunities for remedial training and the opportunity to again pass the juries. If the student fails again, some schools permit the student to switch out of the BFA track to a non-audition BA track.</li>
<li>some schools use juries simply as a component of testing for grades and as a tool for students to receive constructive feedback about their growth. Such schools frequently have minimum grade requirements below which a student will be put on casting restriction and if a student fails to maintain acceptable grades or demonstrates consistently poor work ethic and attendance, the student will be asked to leave.</li>
</ol>

I think the above fairly states the range of approaches that might be encountered. It’s not my intention here to get involved in a protracted discussion about the underlying purposes, educational priorities or philosophies of any approach. That’s been done in depth on the other threads. Suffice it to state that a cut system is hardly a prerequisite of maintaining a top flight program with hardworking, talented and dedicated students. It is also critically important to ask very direct questions at each school so that you have a clear understanding of a school’s policies.

connections · October 31, 2012, 11:51pm

Thanks, MichaelNKat. Do you happen to have a link to the other threads by any chance?

fishbowlfreshman · November 1, 2012, 6:53am

Here’s a thread from this forum. I blocked and moved two of the most insightful posts on the topic from the MT forum by doctorjohn and someone claiming to be a former administrator at the Webster program in posts 14 and 15. I’ll bump it, too …

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/theater-drama-majors/964556-can-we-talk-about-cuts.html?[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/theater-drama-majors/964556-can-we-talk-about-cuts.html?</a>

P.S. DePaul supposedly did away with their cut system.

connections · November 1, 2012, 9:26am

Thanks, fishbowlfreshman! Helpful as always. Very useful link. I think the biggest message to take away is that the numbers never lie. You can spin things however you want, but if you look at cold statistical numbers over the years, they should inform you what is actually happening at the school, regardless of stated intent.

CCM Drama is a cut program

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