Chance a Sophomore for Ivies (and other elite schools) [MA resident, Ranked 2nd in class, 4.0 UW, 4.5 W, lower income; political science and/or computer science]

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics

  • US domestic
  • State/Location of residency: MA
  • Type of high school: Very Uncompetitive Public Technical High School (my only other option was a total warzone)
  • White Male
  • Other special factors (first generation to college, legacy, athlete, etc.): First Gen, Lower Class

Intended Major(s)
PoliSci/CS?

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 4.0
  • Weighted HS GPA (incl. weighting system): 4.5
  • Class Rank: 2 (good chance I’ll beat out 1)
  • ACT/SAT Scores: Have Yet to Take

Coursework
Taken: 1 AP, 1 DE, and all Honors
Going to Take By End of High School: 7 APs total, 3 DEs total

Awards (Definitely a major weak point; plan on bolstering next year)
1: I’ve won a few medals at state-level conferences for MUN

2: I got third place in SkillsUSA Districts (so close!)

3: Student of the Month (May), Humanities Student of the Month (February)

4: Don’t know if applicable, but I have a few CS certifications and will likely have many more by the end of High School

  • Plans:

5: Writing Competitions:

I plan on entering writing competitions next year. I’d say writing is a talent I possess.

Extracurriculars
1: President of Math Club (1yr thus far)

As President of the Math Club, I preside over our weekly meetings. As well, I am responsible for organizing school-level events related to Mathematics. We’re hoping to compete next year, but due to the pandemic, there are no regional competitions available (and apparently last time we went we got wrecked, so…)

2: Founder of Debate Team (Just started):

As I basically just founded this club, we’ve done pretty much nothing hitherto. I’m hoping to compete in some regional/state-level competitions next year. I may become captain.

3: President of Student Council (1 yr thus far):

As President of the Student Council, I am responsible for presiding over our weekly meetings and providing more extensive assistance with the planning of events. This is really much less of a student government body and much more of a planning committee.

4: Captain of Model UN Team (1 yr thus far):

As the captain of the MUN team, I am responsible for assisting with planning school-level MUN events and assisting with researching new conferences/opportunities. As well, I mentor less experienced members.

5: Founder and President of Chess & Board Game Club (1 yr thus far):

Yeah, I just kind of commence the meetings. I don’t know how to spin this one. I just wanted a space and time to play games with my friends. Honestly, we mostly play D&D. I also teach people how to play Chess.

6: Member of Robotics Club (1 yr):

We basically just sit around coding and occasionally play with robots. I’m not sure there’s a leadership position for me here.

7: Counselor at School Summer Program/Student Ambassador:

I pretty much just help freshmen and work open houses. I have about 140 hours of community service from this and am about to get about another 100 this summer.

8: Competitor SkillsUSA (2 yrs thus far):

It’s honestly a bit embarrassing that I’ve yet to win at the state level. Me and my friend are going to compete together again next year, and we have high hopes.

  • Plans:

9: NHS Officer/Possibly President?:

This is one of my most ambitious plans. It is a certainty I will be inducted into NHS next year. However, I would also like to run for chapter president. I’m fairly well-liked among my peers, and so I have a pretty good chance of actually being elected.

10: Economics Outreach:

I would like to establish an organization of some sort for the purpose of providing basic economic education to local elementary and middle school students. This is something in the early planning phase, and so I have not yet gathered the necessary resources to actualize this.

11: Summer Programs/Research:

During junior year, I’m basically going to shotgun prestigious summer programs (think PROMYS, Ross, MITES, etc.) While it is very unlikely I will be accepted, I think it’s worth an attempt. If I am not accepted, there is a summer research opportunity at a local university it is nearly guaranteed I will be able to attend.

Essays/LORs/Other
Obviously haven’t gotten these yet, but I’m fairly well-liked among the faculty, so I have many strong candidates in this department.

Schools

I’m trying to get into the Ivy League, UCLA, UC Berkeley, MIT, Stanford, Duke, and other elite schools (all reaches). I know this list is incredibly ambitious; I’m not delusional. But I’d like your opinions on if I have even the slightest chance of getting into one of these. Regarding safeties/matches, I’ve already got that all worked out for the most part. As well, do you guys have any advice on what I can do to improve next year? Any extracurriculars or opportunities you’d recommend? Thanks in advance.

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Are you now just completing your sophomore year in high school?

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As something to consider for the future, these interests could be combined through a data science major with political science as your chosen “applied domain.”

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Yeah

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Here is my opinion.

  1. I think you will be in a better place to know about these reach schools after 11th grade, and after you have taken the PSAT, SAT, and ACT. You want to do your best on that PSAT because if you get national merit Semifinalist status, that will open some doors for you in terms of merit aid (not at the reaches, but at other places).

  2. I think it’s great you want to have a leadership position in NHS, but really, NHS membership in general isn’t something that will move the needle in terms of admission to any college.

  3. The schools listed are all reaches…for anyone who applies. At this point…just do your personal best…and then see where you stand.

  4. Please make sure you have options that are affordable for your family.

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Duly noted. Thanks for the advice.

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You are low income and out of state. Consider whether it is worth applying when they will likely cost upwards of $80K/year (there is no need based aid available for out of state students and very little merit aid).

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Worth noting. Thanks!

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First of all it sounds like you are doing very well.

What is your budget for university? All of the various Universities of California, including UCLA and UC Berkeley, have almost no financial aid at all for out of state students. Unless you can afford to be full pay, even if you get in they will be unaffordable.

The Ivy League schools are not particularly known for computer science. Some are decent for CS, and several are very good for political science. However, do not apply to a school just because it is in the Ivy League. Instead, take a close look at its programs, and think about what schools will be best for you.

MIT and Stanford are of course very good for computer science. They are also a reach for even the strongest students. When the time comes you might want to run the NPCs for both (and for any Ivy League schools that you end up considering) and if your stats and activities are still excellent, and if the NPCs show them as likely to be affordable, and if you still want to attend them, then they would be worth an application. At this point you do look like a very competitive applicant. However, they would be reaches.

One comment above suggests that you could combine Political Science and CS with a Data Science major. Data Science also includes quite a bit of math. MIT, Stanford, Harvard, and Princeton are all excellent for math. MIT has a major 18C “mathematics with computer science” that combines CS and math. This is pretty much what I did, except that the major did not exist when I was there (my degree just says “mathematics”).

Yes, I think that you do have a chance. But these are all reaches.

This is very good. Probably the most important thing for you to do is to make sure that you have at least one and preferably two solid safeties that you apply to. To be a safety you need to have a very, very good chance for admissions, and also a very, very good chance that you can afford to attend. For someone from Massachusetts considering CS as a major, you have one big advantage: Specifically the University of Massachusetts, Amherst is very good for CS.

One thing that you should do is to think quite carefully about what sort of university would be the best fit for you. You will want to visit a few schools. Knowing what schools are a good fit for you, and why, and being able to explain why a school is a good fit for you, will both improve your admissions chances and make it more likely that you will end up at a school that is a good fit.

I think that you should read the “applying sideways” blog on the MIT admissions web site (a quick Google search will find it). As I understand it, it recommends that you do what is right for you, and do it very well. This is what my family has done, and it has worked for us. However, what each of us did was very different, and between the four of us it has led us to eight different universities (one each for our bachelor’s, and a different one each for graduate programs).

And I think that at this point you are doing very well.

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To answer your question, yes, you’re doing well - and if you keep doing well, get a great test score, LORs, and write great essays…then perhaps.

The beauty about being a top student that has need is - you give yourself options.

A UC won’t be - but maybe your scores are fantastic and you can go to an Alabama for $20K or less. I mean, a large public is a large public.

Or we don’t know your need - and maybe you don’t get in Ivy but you get in a meets need school like Miami or Kenyon, etc.

So keep doing what you’re doing - having a great profile gives you option whether Ivy or otherwise.

Some kids can’t afford to go to any school - and you eliminate that issue depending on your ultimate budget and the opportunity your profile provides. Being able to attend college is the most important thing.

But you’ve done well so far. No one can tell you where or what level schools you’ll ultimately get into - as there’s another year of grades and a test score to come.

But you’re on a great path - so keep up the great work!!

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For each college of interest, look for the net price calculator on its financial aid web pages. Use it to get an estimate of financial aid and net price for that college.

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So one thing we have learned recently from Dartmouth, Yale, and by implication other highly selective colleges is that even when nominally test optional, for FGLI (first-generation/lower-income) applicants from what are sometimes known as under-resourced high schools, they tend to really value a high test score. As others are noting, even with such a test score you should understand the odds are long at those sorts of colleges, because they are for virtually everyone who is not a recruited athlete or such, but a FGLI with a high test score and great grades is one of the more competitive profiles.

I would also just note that while you say you already have safeties and matches covered, I hope this means you have identified colleges like that you would really be excited to attend, that you have carefully chosen because of special attributes you would find particularly attractive, possibly merit or honors opportunities, and so on. No rush, but if not this place is great at helping people find genuinely exciting opportunities like that, sometimes ones that kids were not even aware were possible.

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You are off to a great start! Keep it up! I hope you’ll continue to post here so we can follow your journey and add advice as needed.

Have you looked at Questbridge? You can apply to the Prep Scholars program as a junior and get early support for college applications.

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You’re doing great - congrats! And good advice here from others. I agree with what others have said but would add a couple of points that might also seem to somewhat contradict some of the other advice (even though the other advice is also good!)

Regarding test scores - while ivies/highly selective schools might value high test scores from students from under resourced schools, several have also said that students from these schools (you) should not always worry about having a score in their “typical” range. Several schools have noted that they can be very impressed by a “lower” score if it is several hundred points above the average score of students from that School. e.g. if an “under-resourced” student scores 1300 and the average from their school is <900 it can still be very impressive to a highly selective school whose average admit scores 1500+

Second, although I absolutely agree with the advice that it’s usually not a good idea to apply to a school just because it’s Ivy League, I will add a caveat to that. In my personal experience sometimes having an Ivy League/elite degree really does open doors more easily than other schools, especially for students from lower-income backgrounds. Of course you can get a great education at any school. And MANY schools have great alumni networks. And many schools are better for CS than some Ivy schools. I agree with all that. I’m just saying that in my experience a big name undergraduate degree can still help you “fit in” or “stand out” in a good way in some environments. I know not everyone agrees with this and people will likely name all the other schools that are impressive in their own way. That’s fine. Just sharing my lived experience, coming from an “under-resourced” background and sometimes feeling like I didn’t belong as I rose up the ranks in my career. Sometimes having that Ivy on your resume can give you a boost of confidence and credibility in environments where people don’t know you. Maybe less so for CS but definitely for political science, and just in general.

You are doing great - good luck to you!

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CS or PoliSci? CompSci is one of the most competitive programs to win acceptance at a strong program, and it is one of the most demanding academically. PoliSci is far less competitive and demanding. AOs for these programs will be looking for very different academic credentials when evaluating applicants. If you are serious about CS, you will need STEM APs, including Calc, with good scores. You will also need a very strong SAT Math score (CMU’s 25th and 75th percentile math scores for CompSci students are… wait for it… 800 and 800). My guess is AOs for politial science will be looking for AP History, Econ, etc., and strong writing skills.

Think about which path you want to pursue. Your decision will drive what classes you take in your junior and senior years, and what ECs you do.

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I agree that Ivies brand and alumni networks, historically, have opened doors in PoliSci, or any social science or humanities track. This is especially true in government and legal fields where so many people in senior positions have a history or political science degree, and then a law degree, also from an Ivy. With the recent scandals, however, I think the luster is off the rose with federal judges and white shoe law firms publicly stating they will no longer recruit from specific Ivy league law schools, and corporate recruiters anonymously stating that they avoid the Ivies.

If the OP is interested in CompSci, there are other schools that are far more prestigious than the Ivies, including Stanford, MIT and CMU.

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The point I would make is that while it is absolutely true the established elite socioeconomic status/multigenerational-college families in the US favor certain undergrads, and that there have been empirical studies suggesting FGLIs and such can potentially benefit from choosing to attend those same undergrads, the Ivy League itself is just one subset of those undergrads. The same families also favor the colleges at various other private research universities, various other standalone colleges (aka liberal arts colleges or LACs), and indeed various flagship public universities. Although with public universities, the use of them by the elite families may depend on the state/region, and they may use things like honors colleges, Greek organizations, and so on to create a sort of selective elite within the overall university.

And some of that is a moving target over time, with certain colleges having fallen or risen in favor among those elite US families, the importance of Greek organizations fading (or being entirely eliminated) at some colleges, and so on.

My experience participating in online conversations about college admissions for over a year now is that a lot of high numbers kids unfamiliar with this complex web of elite undergrad programs sometimes take an avoidable boom-or-bust strategy when it comes to their lists. They include only the most famous of these undergrads, typically only the ones at research universities, such as the Ivies or private “T20s”, which are typically also the hardest for admission. For their “safeties” and often “matches” and such, though, they then pretty much ignore all this. So there is a big gap in the nature of the undergrad programs between their reaches and their non-reaches.

OK, then some get into an affordable reach, so fine. Others, though, don’t get into one of their reaches, and then they might end up unhappy having to “settle” for one of their non-reaches. And others get into one or more reaches, and yet it proves unaffordable for their family, so they again have to unhappily “settle”.

All this is avoidable because if your numbers are good enough, there are likely programs also favored by elite US families that will want you, that indeed might want you badly enough to throw serious merit offers your way, and yet that are not as famous as the Ivies/T20s. Again these could be other private research universities, LACs, or certain publics (and possibly honors programs within those or other publics).

Indeed, everything is a sliding scale, and in every selectivity/affordability range you can find colleges more (or less) likely to be favored by elite US families. And in somewhat of an ironic twist, recent changes to the US News methodology, as well as other new rankings that have been published by popular media outlets, have actually started to de facto punish these colleges for having too many kids from elite families, and not as many kids from lower SES families.

But the empirical studies suggest it is precisely those colleges which are the best bet for serious upward mobility for the lower SES kids who do attend! You have to make it affordable of course, but if you can, then, to be very blunt about it, it is a good and not a bad thing from a mobility perspective if there are more kids than usual from elite families at the same undergrad.

OK, this has gotten very long, but my point is unfortunately these new/modified rankings are kinda encouraging that boom-or-bust mentality. And of course the well-established, multigenerational elite families are not going to be unduly swayed by any of that, but other kids might.

But you, meaning, the OP, can avoid all that, including with our help. Because again to be very blunt about it, there are a lot of people here who from their own family experiences know quite a bit about the elite undergrads beyond just the few most famous you will find promoted by the popular media outlets. And we can help you navigate all that in a far more nuanced way.

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This Town & Country article suggests 15 in particular:

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