Chance an Asian olympiad grinder to HYPSM [US citizen outside the US, 4A* predicted A-level, 1550 SAT, physics, cogsci, math]

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics:
Gender- Male
race/ethnicity- Korean (US, Korean dual citizen)
type of school- British top boarding school (one of Eton, Winchester, Harrow)
hooks (URM, first generation, legacy, athlete, etc.):none

Intended Major(s): Physics, Cogsci, Maths

ACT/SAT/SAT II: 1550 Sat 800maths 750 English

UW/W GPA and Rank: We dont have GPA
but eight grade 9s and one grade 8 in gcse
4 A* in Maths Further Maths Chem Physics in Alevel (predicted)

Coursework: AP/IB/Dual Enrollment classes, AP/IB scores, etc

N/A

Awards:

Usapho gold (top 50 in country)
USAAO round 2 qual
Aime qual + HR in amc with 136.5
Regional science fair gold

Extracurriculars: Include leadership & summer activities

One of Promys/Ross/Sumac-intensive maths summer program with ~10% acceptance rate

Cognitive Science Research Paper — Designed a Corsi block-tapping experiment investigating bilingualism’s effect on visuospatial working memory; produced full APA paper under a university-affiliated mentorship program.

ML Drug Interaction Project (Science Fair Gold) — Built ML models predicting adverse drug-drug interactions under a university professor’s mentorship; Gold Prize at an international science & engineering fair.

Mindfulness × Neurocognition Study — Built a custom online platform testing induced mindfulness on 80 participants across spatial, reaction-time, and memory tasks; statistically significant ~15% reaction-time improvement (p=.020) under an Ivy League psych lab.

Optical Fiber Daylighting System (Patent Pending) — Designed and prototyped a passive optical-fiber system distributing natural sunlight into a windowless underground space at school; national patent application filed.

Drama — Directed a house play; lead/narrator roles in two school productions; LAMDA Grade 6 Distinction.

Poetry Recital — Top 15 semi-finalist in school-wide poetry competition.

Physics Olympiad club- president prepared student in school for BPho and Usapho 1 hour each week

Chess — Varsity team in inter-school tournaments; 100+ hours teaching chess to children ages 4–12 at local primary schools.

Engineering Society — Presented on cutting-edge tech (drones, materials, rockets); organised in-school engineering competitions.

Essays/LORs/Other:

Essays- I havent written these yet as im a junior but i believe my essays are gonna be good as im a good writer. Like a solid 8-9/10 in terms of essays. Not a make or break but definitely wont raise any red flag type shi.

LORs- i feel like my math teacher likes me 8/10 probs but the other one is probs more like a 6/10 as british teachers are quite conservative in their recs

Schools: List of colleges, ED/EA/RD, etc

Basically all the t20 + oxbridge and a few saftey.

Gonna ea mit.

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Can you explain why you are interested in coming to a US college for undergrad, and specifically one that is very much based in the US version of the liberal arts and sciences tradition?

In a related question, why are you specifically interested in a US-style residential college experience? And what do you think you would contribute personally to such a college community in addition to academics?

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My first recommendation is that you find out as much as you can about various top ranked universities and see if you can explain why one might be a better fit for you compared to a different one. As examples, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford are all very good overall and for your intended major. Could you explain why one might be a better fit than another? I will admit that this is a tough question (I have degrees from two of these schools and have visited the third multiple times, and I still feel that this would be a tough question for me to answer). While this is a tough question, I think that if you can come up with good answers or at least a general understanding of the differences this might come across one way or another in your applications.

One thing to look at in an attempt to answer this question would be the graduation requirements for each school. Consider both major-specific and overall university requirements.

As one example that does occur to me, in general universities in the US will often have more graduation requirements that are outside your major compared to universities in the UK (or universities in Canada).

I think that universities in the US will consider you as a domestic student for admissions, even though your application will be considered by someone who is very familiar with UK high schools and with the grading system used in UK high schools. The rest of my answer will be partly based on this understanding.

I think that understanding how machine learning works is going to be useful for a long time, probably for your entire career. I expect this to be true pretty much regardless of what area you go into. Having a strong math background and taking a course or two or three in machine learning and AI might enhance this knowledge.

I think that you are very highly competitive at the top schools. None of them are safeties (assuming that you have not personally won a Nobel Prize and neither parent is the head of state of a friendly nation).

For HYPSM, I might wildly guess that your chances for any one of them would be in the mid single digit percentages. This is assuming that your grades are superb, and I must admit that I am not particularly familiar with the UK grading system. On the one hand your grades (if I am interpreting them correctly) and activities are superb. However at least some of the top schools (such as the Ivy League schools and Stanford) consider legacy (which I am assuming you are not) and give some slots to athletes, and at least HYPSM have acceptance rates around about 4% among a long list of typically excellent applicants.

I did not see any mention of budget in your post. Pay attention to what university in the US costs.

As a wild thought, if you wanted to consider it then I think that your chances for admissions at the U. of Toronto would be very good.

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If you are a citizen of the Republic of Korea, be aware of the impending choice (by 3/31 of the year you turn 18) of whether to retain or renounce RoK citizenship, with implications regarding mandatory military service and other things.

DPRK also has mandatory military service.

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What is an “Asian Olympiad grinder”?

The colleges you have listed are all reach schools. You have a strong list of achievements…and you could get accepted to all of them, or you could get denied from all of them.

What is your sure thing for acceptance, that you like, that is affordable?

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And, piggy-backing on that: would you be fine with attending your safety(-ies)? (ETA – I see that “that you like” was included, which makes my comment redundant. Apologies.)

These are all very selective schools. What are you looking for in your college experience?

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Congratulations on your achievements.

Have you identified at least one school that you are highly likely to be accepted to that is also affordable?

Do you have any cost constraints? If so, will your family qualify for need based aid? Run the net price calculators at each school on your list if you would like a cost estimate.

Calling @hebegebe to put achievements in context for US highly selective schools.

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Curious which of Oxford or Cambridge you will apply to, and what you were thinking of as safeties. There will likely be many safe/likely options with your grades, so some idea of what you are looking for in a college would be useful if you want suggestions (big, small, urban, rural, sports, Greek life, etc)

Would you have to pay international fees at a UK university?

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Only in the single digits? I assumed it would be higher than that as i strongly believe my profile is better than the average applicant and the acceptance rate overall is in the mid single digits.

In terms of costs fortunately it isnt a problem.

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Does it matter if your chances are 8% or 14%? This is a distinction without a difference.

You need backups to your reach heavy list. That’s all any of us can predict. But if you are assuming that the kids in the US applying to HYP etc. are slackers with nothing but good grades to bring to the table- your assumption is incorrect.

Be the best version of YOURSELF, make sure you have backup schools you’d be happy to attend and which will meet your own educational needs, and don’t worry about some statistical gaming.

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I mean, maybe you move from 5% to 10% if you think you have double the chance of the average applicant. It’s still a reach.

Bear in mind that the overall stats profile is probably slightly pulled down (not sure of extent) by those who get preferential treatment in admissions ie athletes, donors and legacy. Stanford actually gave up some California funding so that it could keep using legacy and donors in admissions, which tells you they still consider it important. This is why the original “chance me” template asks if you have any of these hooks, because they matter.

Your grades and SAT are in line. ECs are excellent, but so are a lot of others. There’s not enough there to say…raise your chances from 5% to 25%. Even if they were, that’s still a reach. Of course at the end of the day the % probability means nothing - you’re either in or you’re not. You definitely have the profile to shoot for these schools, so do, but make sure you have some sure things.

Final word, you say “all t20”. Apart from the fact that these schools vary wildly in type, you’re going to be spending a LOT of time writing essays if you’re applying to that many top schools, so be sure you have the time to do them well.

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One thing to consider is holistic review is multifactor, and for the most selective holistic review colleges, and unhooked applicants, it is nearly impossible to make up for being below their standards on one factor just by being higher on other factors.

Broadly speaking, the main factors are academics, activities, and personal/fit ratings. So, for example, if they don’t see an unhooked applicant as meeting their standards on personal/fit factors, it is extremely difficult for such an unhooked applicant to make that up with academics or activities. Instead, they will be more likely to admit someone who meets their standards in all three areas, even if their academics and/or activities are not quite as superlative.

I note I focused on personal/fit factors in part because of your self-description of your essays and recommendations. That is also why I asked you the questions above about whether/why you are particularly interested in the liberal arts and sciences tradition, and what you would contribute to a residential college community besides academics. These are often critical questions for the colleges you named given the way they practice holistic review.

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The “average applicant” to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT is a very impressive student.

The acceptance rate for legacy students at HYPS (but not M since it does not consider legacy) is quite a bit higher than the overall acceptance rate. This is partly because these four schools consider legacy in admissions. My belief is that it is also helpful to applicants to have a parent who attended at least some highly ranked university, since this implies that the parents might have at least some vague clue regarding what might possibly have gotten them accepted, and will also have a good understanding of what it is like to attend one of these schools. I think that this parent knowledge will help the legacy student (even at schools that do not consider legacy such as MIT). Also, the Ivy League is after all a sports league. They do not offer athletic scholarships. However, they do recruit athletes. Thus a straight A student who also happens to be a great high school quarterback, or who is 6’ 3” and weights 260 pounds and can help to keep the quarterback vertical long enough to get rid of the ball, can have a significant advantage in admissions to Ivy League schools, and to Stanford. For Duke being a straight A student who can hit a 3 pointer under pressure (in basketball) might help.

The overall acceptance rate includes legacy students and recruited athletes. The acceptance rate for students who are neither of the above is typically even lower than the published rate.

Thus “mid single digits” is probably slightly better than the average unhooked (non-athlete non-legacy) applicant for many of these schools.

However, it is very hard to predict a student’s chances for admissions, other than to say that these schools are a reach for nearly everyone, and you are a competitive applicant.

Exactly. “Rejection is more likely than acceptance” and “you need at least one and preferably at least two solid safeties” might be all that you really need to know.

Perhaps a third thing is worth keeping in mind: For those students who go on to some sort of graduate degree, it is very normal and very common to change universities between undergraduate and graduate education. For very strong students, it is not unusual to “switch upward” in terms of attending a higher ranked university for your graduate degree compared to where you got your bachelor’s degree (although what universities are highly ranked for any particular specialty is not always the same as the universities that are highly ranked overall). Thus if you think that you might at some point in the future get a graduate degree, your chances at the top schools are not over even if you do not get into one straight out of high school.

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OP: one of the very recent episodes of “Inside the Yale Admissions Office” podcast is all about international applications, and might be worth a listen.

The super selective US schools look at the whole candidate. This means they believe that the ability to contribute to a vibrant campus scene, even if your stats are slightly weaker, is preferable to an another candidate whose stats are perfect but who studies all the time. Hence, assuming your grades and scores are already excellent, I suggest you pay extra attention to EC’s - essays - recommendations that reflect your strengths as a person whom other folks want to hang around.

Some of these other comments make me think that nowadays, an “unhooked” candidate (no legacy, not a child of faculty or major donor, not an athlete, etc.) who gets into one of these highly selective schools must be truly special indeed.

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Bear in mind that kids can have hooks and still be exceptional. We have 3 students from my kid’s high school going to Stanford in the fall. 2 are recruited athletes and the 3rd is a double legacy. They all have stellar academic and EC profiles as well - as do others in our school, but I’m guessing their hooks tipped them above the others who may have applied. (Others may have gotten in too and chosen elsewhere - I don’t have sight of admits, only destinations, and we have a fair number of kids going to to T20s.) Of course unhooked kids get in too, but the pool of available spaces is effectively smaller for those. I think these factors may sometimes be hard to understand for people coming from other educational systems like the UK where these are “nice to haves” but are not going to be a deciding factor in whether or not you’re admitted.

(I am going to assume OP will certainly be competitive for Oxbridge with that profile, and I will further assume that his elite boarding school will be able to prep the students well for any entry exams they may need and for the interviews. It is just a very different process for admission.)

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I definitely think “grinder” is one of the hardest possible paths to unhooked admissions at the most selective few colleges.

In contrast, the unhooked admits I know about who saw their Admissions file seem to have often found out it was something about their recommendations, possibly as supported by essays, that made them stand out as a person who was sincerely valued by others in their school community. And of course they were very good students and did some impressive activities. But validation that they were truly valued in their school community seems to be the biggest available “plus” factor for otherwise unhooked applicants.

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Yes, I think there are extremely strong Oxbridge candidates who are not such a great fit for the most selective holistic review US colleges. Someday they might also be great fits for US graduate programs. But these particular US undergrad programs have admissions values and priorities that are pretty alien to most of the world.

That said, I think there are some excellent US specialty schools and restricted major programs and such that might be more receptive.

But that’s not so much what the usually-defined“T20” schools offer, with the possible exception of Caltech (which I think is at least closer to a US grad program–but is also VERY small).

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@fightingsalmon I’m going to link a thread here. It’s an older thread but college admissions have only become more competitive since this thread was written. The student in this thread was a NMF, class val, excellent SAT score, excellent LOR, excellent essays, very very refined ECs. No one expected him to be rejected everywhere he applied as a HS senior, but that is what happened. He didn’t really have a true sure thing on his application list. He landed very well on his feet after a well crafted gap year, but his senior year in high school was not a happy time. You don’t want to be this student.

Here is the thread. Please read it all.

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I don’t think this student is an international applicant.

They are U.S. citizens.

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@Mwfan1921, thanks for tagging me.

This is the most important line in your description, because you will be considered a domestic student for the purpose of admission. You probably already know that international students are held to much higher standards. For example, nearly 100% of the US IMO applicants to MIT are accepted, whereas for international applicants, only about half are.

Good, as it is well known, and presumably the counselors know how to write recommendation letters for US schools.

Highly recognized math program, which is positive.

Nice individual accomplishments, with the USAPHO being the highlight. Re the AMC score, crazy how much the cutoffs have changed from just five years ago, as that would have been a DHR rather than HR.

Again, a nice set of research and development projects. For the gold prize, do you mean ISEF 1st?

Do you have an ELO rating? What is it?

I think the MIT EA is reasonable.

But I think that applying to all the T20s plus Oxbridge is too much. Others have asked why all of them, and that’s a good question. Are you seriously as interested in rural and relatively conservative Dartmouth as much as you are in liberal Columbia right in NYC?

And what are your safeties? And have you considered Canadian colleges like McGill, Waterloo or U of Toronto which have admissions focused more on pure merit?

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