Thank you, this is very helpful. Her most core interest is modeling science. She’s not sure whether she will lean more to the CS end or math end of modeling (applied math is interesting to her as well), and has enjoyed both the stats/analyzing data and the differential equation modeling types of projects she’s done so far, but either way she does want the technical depth. She’s quite good at math. So she’s wondering if a grad school will care if her degree says “bio” (not requiring much computational depth or math), if she has all the cs and math classes on her transcript alongside it. Or vice versa – if it says “cs” “data science” or “applied math” and she has the bio background. How much the degree title itself will matter, basically.
There is some possibility she will pivot entirely to modeling a different science field, but she’d presumably figure that out in undergrad and then face the same question with say, chem or physics vs cs/math.
So let’s take CMU’s PhD program as an example. They specifically say the following:
We welcome applications from candidates with a wide array of undergraduate majors—including mathematics, engineering, sciences, economics, psychology, and administration.
While foundational courses in probability, statistics, calculus, and linear algebra are essential, advanced statistics knowledge is not required.
This makes sense, like why WOULD they care about the name on your degree? They do want to make sure you have taken the courses necessary to be prepared, but they have no particular reason to care if that was part of your major or not.
Oh, and I did Data Science because I thought it made the point in the strongest possible way, but here again is their joint PhD program in Computational Biology with Pitt:
We welcome students from various backgrounds, including life sciences, computer sciences, physical sciences, mathematics, statistics or engineering majors. We especially welcome students with interdisciplinary backgrounds (e.g., with undergraduate (or Master’s) degrees in computational biology or bioinformatics), or multi-disciplinary backgrounds, for example, double major or major/minor in biology and a quantitative science.
That’s a lot of possible paths! And while they are suggesting things like formalized interdisciplinary majors or combined majors and minors, I really do not think they would have a problem with someone who did as much core coursework in multiple areas as someone with a major and minor, but for whatever reason did not get a minor. In other words, I think when they say “for example”, they mean it.
To answer a few people’s questions: I never meant to imply I thought she didn’t have tons of math to learn. She just wants to be able to take appropriate math classes for her, whatever they are, to go more in depth. And she won’t have official college credit (other than AP calc), so she’d need to hope they’ll work with her on whatever placement makes sense. The MVC and Differential equations classes were taught as college-level classes online to homeschoolers (same texts and pacing and rigor according to the teacher who used to teach the same classes in a university). And the probability and stats classes were through MIT opencourseware, so short on feedback, but using their problem sets and exams. Our resources are somewhat limited where I live, and this is what was possible. She will likely use MIT opencourseware again next year. I don’t think she’d mind taking a class with the same name if it was much more in depth than what she’d already done – so what she means by a college being flexible with placement is just a place where the bureaucracy is light enough that she could talk to the profs or take a test and then take whatever class they agree makes sense. Maybe that is MVC over again, or maybe not, but I think she wants a place where it would be possible to prove you knew something and could move on to the next class. I am not in any position to judge (she knows far more math than me!) how much she actually knows, so I was more asking about the bureaucratic flexibility piece.
So part of the issue she is likely going to run into is without getting to know her better first, the Math professors at a given college are not going to be able to give a reliable answer to whether they will make exceptions to their normal course prereqs.
I do think as a general rule of thumb, LACs and smaller privates are not a bad bet for this purpose, because among other things the faculty in a department might have more discretion to do that sort of thing, possibly even after classes start. But even large publics can start feeling kinda small when you are into the advanced classes just for majors. The concern is more what it takes to get to that point first.
My suggestion to her would be to not worry too much about this yet. But if she is looking at some multiple good offers at some point, then she might want to see if as an admitted student, she can talk to someone in the Math department about how they really handle cases like hers. They may well be willing to schedule a live meeting during something like an admitted students day, or if not some sort of Zoom situation. Admitted students basically have more leverage to arrange that sort of thing.
Student will major in math. In this case, asking the math department at a given college should result in the most direct answer about what its policy is.
Student will major in something that requires math more advanced than single variable calculus (e.g. statistics, but usually not biology). In this case, asking both the math department and the department of the major what their policies are would be indicated.
Student will take courses listing the more advanced math courses as prerequisites. In this case, asking the math department and the department of the courses in question how this is handled would be indicated. Also, find out if the class registration system enforces prerequisites.
The answers may be different for each college, so generalizations are not likely to match the situation at every college.
If a math course must be repeated, consider taking an honors version if offered.
My guess, admittedly not certain, is that this repetition will be less of an issue than your daughter thinks unless she truly is a one in a miIlion brilliant. I just double checked the program of studies at both our college prep high school and the local highly ranked public school system. Either in the schools or through DE all of her math classes are available. And with the exception of some of those really discrete genetics courses, every single science is available. These schools send kids to Top 20 and multiple Ivies every year. Our zoned public is sending at least one to MIT as well this year
I’d encourage her to spend less time convinced these schools will make her redo things, since she will likely to be surrounded by other very high achieving kids who have also taken the same or similar courses. Focus on fit and finances.
I can speak to this for WPI - my older son just graduated a few weeks ago. When he came in he placed out of: the lowest three calculus levels; two physics courses; one humanities depth/breadth class (you can only use one AP towards the six required humanities depth/breadth/elective); one of two required social science courses; all three of the random “free electives” that his majors required to meet the credit requirement for graduation. He didn’t take any AP CS or Chem or Bio courses, so nothing there he could use, but people who do place out of some of those as well. The school accepts a lot of AP credit. Sometimes what it means is that a major might require, for example, a specific intro course plus one general science course from a group - that’s what happened with my son and Physics. His 5 on the Physics C AP exam gave him credit for two physics courses at WPI, one was a basic requirement that every engineer needed, the other was a general science credit that he could check off so he could do something else with that course slot.
If your daughter isn’t taking AP tests I know that they have some kind of equivalency for DE and IB, I just don’t know what it is. I also know that for math, at least, you don’t need AP to place out of things. Using AP gets you course credits, but for purely placement purposes there is a test. Do well enough on the test, and you place higher and can skip the intro courses.
And, to build on this (since I forgot to mention it the first time). If she does have to take a repeat of a course she’s done before at WPI, at least with the seven week terms it will move fast, which could keep her more engaged just to keep up with the pace, and also it will be over quickly.
Oh, on the off chance she gets into a place like MIT she’s not worried about repetition at all! That was a question more about the higher acceptance rate schools. (She does have AP tests, which will help with that piece, but not the stuff beyond it). But it sounds like maybe it’s not worth worrying about. Never trying to say my kid is a genius – honestly the reason for posting in places like this for advice is that we have a complete lack of points of comparison here (a small town with fewer than 5 high school graduates per year, who often don’t go to college, and if they do, it would often be a state one).
Moving to another topic she cares about deeply. What is a good strategy to figure out how accessible undergraduate research really is at a school? They all have websites that promote it, but she can’t tell how competitive it is from that, and how many kids that want to do research don’t get to. (thinking of school year research, not summer research – she’s pretty adamant she wants to come home in the summers, and while she might change her mind, I suspect culture shock will be a thing, at least in the beginning).
You and she may want to ask for some of those colleges that are of the greatest interest, to get an idea of the policies that exist. For example, at Oregon State, you may want to ask the departments of math, statistics, and biology about how subject credit for majors and prerequisite fulfillment for other courses can work for her prior knowledge in more-advanced-than-AP subject matter in math and biology. I.e. will she be able to waive requirements or prerequisites by exam on the subject matter, or can she substitute other courses for requirements, or will she have to repeat those courses no matter what (and, if so, are there honors or more in-depth versions of the courses available?). But also note how many such courses are required for the various majors (for example, some majors listed at Programs < Oregon State University have none or one math course beyond single variable calculus required, but others have many more).
We asked that question of students on every campus we visited. Most were very forthcoming. And we were surprised by the answers and there didn’t seem to be a rhyme or reason based on the type of school.
IME the best way to get research positions early on is to go to everything and anything hosted by professors - office hours, study sessions, coffee meet and greets, etc… Do research into what research is happening on campus and come prepared to talk about why you’d be a good addition to that prof’s lab team. Some schools even have research specific job fairs but they usually aren’t until the middle of spring.
If research is important to your child, also look into honors colleges and speciality communities because at some schools, that will guarantee your student research opportunities.
I do want to address the school year vs summer research statement. Freshman year will be very very hard to get a during the school year research position and frankly, would be a lot to manage. When my D was doing during the year research she was working a minimum of 20 hours/week in the lab. Not a chance she could have done that when she was first transition to college and carrying 18 credit hours. Not to mention, she didn’t have enough relevant coursework to have made her valuable (she was the only undergrad in her lab).
Many of her peers opted to do summer research that first summer after freshman year, on campus, to gain experience. I’d encourage your daughter to not limit her options by insisting on being home for the summer.
Every way except financially. UDub is not a WUE school, so it will be over budget even with the maximum OOS merit award.
Has the student looked at Northeastern at all? The combined majors offered in Khoury could work well, especially Data Science + Biochem, but there’s also CS+Bio and DS+Bio.
My daughter asked other students and emailed professors. She began her first research position in the spring semester of her freshman year. She had an offer in November of her first year but turned it down because she wasn’t ready.
Summers: I don’t think it is a good idea to start a research position with the idea of not staying on for the summer. My daughter worked on her research during summers (other experiences may differ). She also had a summer research position at a research facility in another state, and they had to commit to 11 weeks over the summer. Again, others may have different experiences.
I remember looking at schools and coming to the realization that HS is a bubble, and there are many, many very smart and accomplished kids out there.
I think kids who are prepared to be flexible about the type of research, the subject, the size of the project, etc. will find an interesting position. Maybe not freshman year if they don’t have enough experience, but certainly by freshman summer.
None of us can predict what types of projects will continue to be on the chopping block (I won’t get political here) so it’s important to encourage our kids to keep an open mind. Professors with decades of experience and a global reputation had funding cut last year– some of which has been restored, some of which has not. And there is no way to figure this out ahead of time. Parkinson’s disease- how is that political? And yet- some projects axed. Clinical trials, early stage basic research, interventions that were ready to be commercialized- cut, cut cut.
So my assessment is that a kid who wants a research role will get one. Maybe not in the desired field, maybe with a second or third choice PI. But research universities will continue to do what they do.
The kids who are SOL are the ones who have a very specific idea of what they want to do. My kids learned that the most valuable skill to have as a freshman is to excel at statistical programming. Every project produces data, that data needs to be assembled and presented. So one of my kids- was he curing cancer or understanding the origins of ALS? No. But he learned a ton, and his second semester freshman year job extended into the summer. MIT offers the option of “cash or credit”- he took credit during the semester, took the cash over the summer (to defray the expenses of living on campus– even in a very cruddy sublet, it still costs money to eat).
I have observed that kids with an open mind find something- even in the current “we hate knowledge” environment.
Research opportunities tend to be most accessible when they appear as part of the standard curriculum, such as in a biolgy research course for full or partial credit, an opportunity that can be repeated across multiple semesters. For the senior year, look for fall and spring thesis options, also as part of the curriculum. For this information, you can view online course catalogs for colleges and departments of interest.
She’d be quite happy to do data programming for a lab – that’s most of what she’s done for independent projects/activities in high school, so if they’re likely to need that, it’d be a good fit for her.
Interesting to hear that everything is in summers. I went to an LAC and no one stayed over summer – people who did research did other research elsewhere or in their home towns and then came back into the profs’ labs after that. But maybe it doesn’t work that way anymore, or not at larger schools. If summers are required it might just be that she ends up getting a slower start in science and doing it a later year maybe. Or maybe she’ll be more ready to stay gone than she thinks.
I want to honor her goals, but also her nervousness as a young human heading out into what will inevitably be a pretty big culture shock situation. I know it’s not uncommon for kids to struggle when they launch from here.
I do think the norms for LAC research have been evolving for both faculty and students. At least the wealthier LACs have been really expanding their lab facilities, including to allow more student research. Many have devoted more institutional funding to student research, both allowing a lot more funded summer research positions and also expanding student research opportunities outside of STEM.
So I’m not sure anything in particular is really “required”, but I think it is true more LAC kids are happily continuing research into the summers with funded positions. I also believe it is still fine for that not to be a thing until a later summer, not something you should feel obliged to do starting with your first summer.
Generally speaking, in fact, I agree it is a good goal not to overcommit to any specific plan before you have even started. Different people adjust to going away to college at different paces, and not necessarily in a way you can predict in advance.