Chance Me at St Andrews and other colleges

When did this thread become about the top 5 schools?

I know plenty of kids who are chasing “prestige” at third tier universities overseas. All of them are more expensive than their own state flagship- which in virtually EVERY case have more resources, better physical plant, better living facilities, more research grants and other scholarly activities, and lower faculty/student ratios. So sure- Oxbridge and their ilk are great. But there are a lot of Americans who are trying to punch above their weight by going overseas-- paying more- and really? You think Adcom’s at business schools or other professional schools don’t know which overseas universities are “elite” and which ones are pretty much open enrollment- but hungry for foreign, full pay students???

No, I am saying that top tier students who are shut out of the top 5 may benefit from going overseas…. That is where I see a beneficial decision being made.
Then again, there are plenty of schools in Europe that could be cheaper if the student isn’t getting merit or need based aid. I believe Germany costs very little. Here in France it costs more if you are from abroad, but even that amount is small in comparison to say, $50k a year. Especially with the weak euro.

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Yes, and for a kid who is shut of the “top 5” in the US (whatever that means- Caltech, MIT, Stanford, ???) the costs overseas could be more than taking the merit offer from their own flagship U’s honors program.

That’s a decision to make. Your posts make it seem as though it’s a clearly financial benefit going international- and it’s not. It’s a trade-off.

Like I said, if you get need based aid in the USA, it could be cheaper, but more likely it will be cheaper in Europe. I just looked up online the cost in Germany….basically, you pay some for administration, about 350€ (Outside of room and board). In France, about 3800€. That seems like a deal that is worth pointing out.
If we ignore cost, there are only so many spaces available at schools people want access to, and if your chances are better abroad to get in, why not try? People can do whatever they want, I don’t care. It’s mainly what they want to study and which system suits them. And of course it comes down also to what they can afford.

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Couple of points re: cost. Education is generally cheaper for full pay students. State flagships “can be” an inexpensive option for many and in some cases can be better than European options. IMO, it makes no sense to talk in general terms. Specific school to specific school has to be looked at. And not every state flagship is going to be globally recognized. Nor is every school abroad. There are still metrics to consider.

Additionally, some top state flagships (UMichigan) comes to mind are tough admits even for in state students. So kids might not have the state flagships choice. My kid was accepted to the honors program at our state flagship but many other high stats kids weren’t even accepted to the school. It’s tough everywhere, esp for certain subjects.

Some general things which haven’t been brought up. UK ( and other nations) often have different prices for various subjects. Medicine tends to be one of the highest priced ones. Engineering and some finance programs can be high at some schools as well. So the cost comparison might be different depending on what one is pursuing.

Top international universities also have some scholarship programs for top admits. So a US student can get admitted and pay less than the international fee. It’s a reach but so is any top school in the US.

Some schools, like St. Andrews have really taken in tons of international students in recent years. I know there is negative talk about this at St. Andrews where 2 friends of my '22 landed. I also think IMO it defeats the purpose of an international education. But it’s become more popular. And seems to get more popular in certain circles every year.

Couple of points re: cost. Education is generally cheaper for full pay students abroad. State flagships “can be” an inexpensive option for many and in some cases can be better than European options. But the list is relatively narrow ( UVA, W&M, UMIchigan, Gtech, some of the UC’s) but certainly not all state flagships. IMO, it makes no sense to talk in general terms. Specific school to specific school has to be looked at. And not every state flagship is going to be globally recognized. Nor is every school abroad. There are still metrics to consider.

Additionally, some top state flagships (UMichigan) comes to mind are tough admits even for in state students. So kids might not have the state flagships choice. My kid was accepted to the honors program at our state flagship but many other high stats kids weren’t even accepted to the school. It’s tough everywhere, esp for certain subjects. And in-state tuition is not that cheap. I think our in-state programs was $32K.

Some general things which haven’t been brought up. UK ( and other nations) often have different prices for various subjects. Medicine tends to be one of the highest priced ones. Engineering and some finance programs can be high at some schools as well. So the cost comparison might be different depending on what one is pursuing.

Top international universities also have some scholarship programs for top admits. So a US student can get admitted and pay less than the international fee. It’s a reach but so is any top school in the US.

Some schools, like St. Andrews have really taken in tons of international students in recent years. I know there is negative talk about this at St. Andrews where 2 friends of my '22 landed. I also think IMO it defeats the purpose of an international education. But it’s become more popular. And seems to get more popular in certain circles every year. Most kids going abroad aren’t going to “no name college”, they are going to well known places that are known in hiring circles for major companies.

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A kid who plans to live and work in the US after college graduation, doesn’t need “global” recognition of his/her university. The kid needs employers, grad school adcom’s, etc. to know the program and understand the rigor. So the list of “recognized” flagship U’s is a LOT longer than UVA, W&M, U Michigan, Gtech and the UC’s.

Overseas is great for SOME subjects and SOME kids at SOME universities. But it is easy to fall into the mindsight of the grass is greener-- and attending a poorly resourced overseas U “for the prestige” is for sure falling into that trap.

I did a semester abroad program during college. It was housed in one of these “low ranking, nobody has heard of it” universities. We had standalone classes, faculty, etc. and the program was very well run- and I got full credit when I got back to my home U because I kept careful records, all papers, exams, syllabus, etc. But a lot of participants in that program did NOT get full credits- the name of the U was sort of a “huh?” when the department chairs at the US colleges had to sign off on the transcript. The local students were unmotivated, there to either avoid military service or to collect their check (the country provided a monthly stipend to full time college students who were citizens).

Not every U is a St. Andrews or UCL. And thinking that there is automatic prestige to going overseas for U-- doesn’t work that way.

Says who? Have you ever attended a global university? How do you know how it would stack up. You seem to have animosity toward foreign schools and keep bringing up state U’s but I don’t know why you think that one is somehow inferior/superior to the other.

So some folks in your program had a bad experience with transfers so by definition that makes foreign schools lesser than. Makes no sense to me at all.

Did someone make a comparison?

Seems like a bit of something you feel rather than stats. I’d suggest anyone interested look at any of the global rankings of colleges. They come out yearly and are like USNews rankings. One can also look up anything by major.

I have been hiring for global companies for 35 years. I am well aware of the global rankings. If you want a job in Singapore after graduation, there is a VERY narrow band of universities which are considered “elite”. If you want a job in France- ditto.

If you are coming back to the States because you are a US citizen, the “list” is very different. That’s all I’m saying.

I have zero animosity to foreign schools. I am trying to give folks here a reality check – Bristol for example- a very fine UK institution- rated 165 or so globally for its program in bio. UNC Chapel Hill- rated in the 20-40’s globally in bio depending on the sub field. Rankings aren’t everything-- except for an American kid who intends to make a career in America who thinks that just because something is “overseas” it’s better.

Zero animosity. I don’t care what your major is, and I’m sure you’re having a wonderful career and had a wonderful experience. Peace.

World History, Lang, US History, being 5 already + Art History, Lit, perhaps Econ/Gov will matter most (the teacher writing your reference should be able to say they’ll be 5’s).
Don’t mess your PS and you should have one or two unconditional offers.

Also consider Trinity Dublin and some of the UCD “Humanities” interdisciplinary programs.

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