Chance Me - D27 for small liberal arts colleges with great financial aid or merit [CA resident, 3.98 GPA, 34 ACT]

Chance Me / Match Me
1

D27 has pretty much finalized her list and would like to know her chances.

Demographics:

CA Resident

Large public high school (about 750 in class) - 90% of students go to UCs, Cal States or community college. Out of state schools like Ivys, NYU, Michigan, Oregon, Colorado also get applications. Very few to LACs so it’s hard to know her chances.

Cost Constraints / Budget
Need significant financial aid or else merit aid (good fin aid should be offered at some schools based on older sibling’s experiences and on NPC preliminary results)

Intended Major(s)

Hopes to double major in Art History and/or History and/or Art and/or philosophy and/or Environmental Studies or who knows?? Really looking to explore.

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 3.98? (one B)
  • Weighted HS GPA: About 4.5 based on UC weighted uncapped
  • Class Rank: NA
  • ACT/SAT Scores: ACT 34 (English - 36, Reading - 36, Math - 30) Also science - 33

List your HS coursework

CC = Community College with community college students - some classes in person at the CC, some online. Very commonly practice for students at our high school because of impacted schedule.

  • English: 9th, 10th, AP Lang, AP Lit (honors not offered before APs)
  • Math: Geometry, Algebra II, Pre-Calc, AP Calc BC (honors not offered before APs)
  • Science: Physics, Biology, AP Physics 1, Physical Geography w/lab - CC, Geology w/lab - CC, Environmental Studies w/lab - CC
  • History and social studies: AP Psychology, AP World, APUSH, AP Gov, 8 art history courses at CC
  • Language other than English: French 1 - CC, French 2 - CC, French 3 - CC, AP French
  • Visual or performing arts: Drawing, Ceramics, AP Art 2D, AP Art 3D

AP scores so far = 4s/5s

*Curious how LACs view CC classes (not for transferring credit - just for admission). In CA they are well thought of and seem to help for UC/Cal State admissions (from what I have seen), but not sure how they are perceived by LACs.

*We are aware she has not taken chemistry in case anyone is going to point that out. She went with sciences that interested her at the local CC instead.

Awards

Excellence in social sciences - grade 10

A few local art awards

Extracurriculars
Sleep away camp assistant counselor/ backpacking leader

Weekly Babysitting

CPR/First Aid/Wilderness First Aid certified

Job at local cafe - junior/senior year

Local leadership in outdoorsy/environmental organization that is part of larger national organization

Essays/LORs/Other
Recs and essay should be strong

Schools

  • Assured: local CC
  • Extremely Likely: UCSC
  • Likely: UC Davis
  • Toss-up: UCSB CCS, St. Olaf
  • Lower Probability: Kenyon, Skidmore, Colorado College
  • Low Probability: Carleton (ED?), Middlebury, Williams, Bowdoin

Main goals were direct/nearby access to outdoors for exploring, hiking, camping, x-country skiing… ability to explore a wide range of subjects,… and specific art/art history offerings. Took off a number in Pacific Northwest because of cloudy/rainy weather, but likes the snow.

Toured lots this summer so she has seen all these schools. Loved, loved, loved everything about Carleton so will maybe ED if we can get comfortable with NPC quote.

A few of the schools on the list are still over budget on NPC but we found with our older kids that some financial aid offers were lower than the NPC. UCs are still a little too expensive for us, but will likely be affordable with a combination of Middle Class scholarship and living with relatives/friends.

Thoughts on her chances?

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Should be admitted to Kenyon College which desperately needs more students and additional revenue.

Should be admitted to Skidmore College & to Colorado College, but you might want to rethink applying to CC if in need of substantial need based financial aid.

Should be admitted to Carleton College ED.

Should receive serious consideration from Middlebury, Williams, and Bowdoin, but admission to any of these three schools is tough.

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I think you are being too conservative in your categories. St. Olaf is a likely, if not extremely likely. Kenyon, Skidmore, and CC are toss ups. I think Carleton is a toss up as well. Middlebury, Williams and Bowdoin are “lower probability” but not “low probability.”

4

The double ACT score of 36 in both English and Reading is quite rare. The math score of 30 is at a lower stanine (below 96th percentile), but it may not matter. D27 should be encouraged to explore several top liberal arts colleges with strong art history & philosophy programs - Amherst, Swarthmore, Wellesley, Pomona, and others in addition to Williams. Financial aid policies & access to merit scholarships will vary.

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If you want an LAC with great financial aid/merit, start with Whitman College. It’s “10% promise” (see its website”) is that you won’t pay more than 10% of your family’s income in tuition.

Then look at St. Olaf’s which is very generous with financial aid/merit.

If you’re interested in NESCAC schools, as some of the schools on your list are, start with Connecticut College and Trinity, the only 2 NESCAC schools which offer merit aid.

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She would get very generous merit at Beloit and Mount Holyoke, along with some already on your list. Other LACs that offer merit include Oberlin, Macalester, Dickinson, Sarah Lawrence, and Bryn Mawr. If you’re eligible need-based aid, run NPCs for colleges that meet full need (these would include most NESCACs for example). Colleges and families don’t always agree on what constitutes “full need,” but it’s work looking at the numbers. If she likes Williams, Middlebury, and Bowdoin, then she might also consider Bates and Amherst if the numbers add up. If she looks into Bryn Mawr and likes it, then run the NPC at Haverford and Swarthmore.

I don’t know how each LAC will see CC courses. I think they tend to prefer AP or IB courses, but if it’s typical to take CC courses at your HS due to scheduling limitations or limited course availability, then you might have her counselor include a statement to that effect in their letter.

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If snow is not the most important criteria look into Rhodes. She will get great merit.

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As I’m sure you know, there’s no merit aid at Carleton. If she’s really set on Carleton then I guess ED makes sense? However, I think she’s very likely to get into a lot of these colleges, and aid offers might be better with EA/RD applications.

From our experience, very decent merit aid offers came from from Beloit, Kalamazoo College, Kenyon, Macalester, Whitman, Sarah Lawrence, and St. Olaf.

I would recommend leveraging EA where available. My kid had acceptances with merit aid numbers by Thanksgiving from some of these schools. That means you would have decisions with the merit aid offer before the ED2 deadline for Carleton which might be helpful in decision making.

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Overall I think this list looks great, and if not for the financial aid part, I would be very confident of it coming through with multiple good offers to consider.

If you want to add some more good aid chances, I would also agree with any of Beloit, Whitman, and Kalamazoo sounding like good fits, and Mount Holyoke if she would consider a women’s college.

I would then add Allegheny College for consideration as well (I don’t think anyone else mentioned it yet). Just briefly, it is a relatively old, sort of classic style LAC but with a modernized curriculum (so similar to others we are recommending). It has a robust merit program, so that is part of the rationale, but it is also in an interesting location for nature lovers, Meadville, PA. It is about 45 minutes south of Erie, 1:45 north of Pittsburgh, and 1:45 east of Cleveland, so not totally isolated (and you have airport choices). But it is a pretty cool area for nature excursions–obviously Lake Erie, but also the very large Pymatuning lake/reservoir is very close, and Conneaut Lake is even closer. And then to the east, you fairly quickly get into a hillier region and eventually Allegheny National Forest (call it about an hour).

On the downside, they don’t have Art History as a standalone major, but they do offer it as what they call a microcredential:

They sort of do a lot of this, unfamiliar types of programs and major combinations, but that could end up a pro. Like, up to her of course, but their Art, Science, and Innovation major and minor sound cool to me:

You can also just do regular studio Art as a major or minor. And then another major/minor I think is cool and might be of interest to her is what they call Public Humanities:

A snippet:

The public humanities major and minor takes an intersectional approach unique for the undergraduate level, to educate students for a life, not just a job. This program engages diverse audiences in dynamic conversations about democracy, art, history, technology, well-being, sustainability, sovereignty, cultural heritage and social change.

Anyway, I don’t think she necessarily needs to apply to any of these, let alone all of them. But more shots at really big aid isn’t a bad thing.

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I’m going to address this since no one else has. While I applaud her for taking classes she wants to take, that decision may come with consequences. Wesleyan is the only school I know that regularly divulges the proportion of its admitted students that have taken bio, chem AND physics, and it’s consistently around 80%:

I expect many of the students who didn’t have all three of BCP attended a school that didn’t offer one of these classes, or the student had a scheduling conflict, or were somehow hooked, like a recruited athlete. We don’t know how Wesleyan’s peers consider this, but I expect it’s similar, so would say Middlebury, Williams, and Bowdoin are quite unlikely simply due to the lack of chem.

Your D could ask the AOs at the various schools on her list what they think…they probably won’t give a firm answer, but some may be informative. Example, if they ask ‘could you still take chem senior year’, well, there’s your answer.

Has your D talked with her HS counselor about lacking chem and the potential impact on admissions? Is your D and/or the counselor going to address it in the app?

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I would agree that the most selective universities would expect a core curriculum covering biology, chemistry, and physics - the traditional track.

green1724 will need to review the science requirement for admission carefully for all colleges she is interested in for “chemistry required” or “chemistry strongly recommended” or “chemistry suggested.” She has taken additional science coursework in geology and environmental studies and has scored “4” and “5” on all AP exams, so a likely candidate to pass out of a general science requirement. For her proposed major, she may never need to open a chemistry book. I have to admit, however; I wouldn’t feel comfortable not taking any high school chemistry, a fundamental science subject.

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What is your budget? Consider St. John’s College in Santa Fe, NM (or Annapolis, MD). It’s a small non-religious Great Books curriculum. Merit is awarded, not sure if it will get to your number.

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You are under-estimating the strength of your daughter’s accomplishments. She should be applying to a different set of LACs and the above highlighted LACs should be regarded as likely, or, if she applies early, safeties. Do not let your daughter settle as her near perfect GPA along with a very strong ACT composite score and 36s in two related categories is impressive.

LACs are small so indications of strong interest by an applicant are taken into consideration.

Additionally, because of the subject areas in which she intends to major, her chances might well be much higher than expected at all LACs (especially Bowdoin College).

They lack of chemistry should not be a concern; in fact, the courage demonstrated by pursing other science courses due to interest should be presented as a positive.

In my opinion,your daughter is aiming a bit low–especially if she will qualify for substantial need based financial aid.

CPR/First Aid/ Wilderness First Aid can be a significant positive.

14

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. We appreciate all the ideas and suggestions. A few responses…

We’ve categorized some schools as “lower probability” because they are need-aware and since we need lots of financial aid, we are worried that could work against her admissions chances even if her stats are at/above 75% of applicants.

All the suggestions for good merit schools are great, but with our last child, we found that we are in an income bracket/family size where no merit offers will bring the price as low as schools with great financial aid. I think it is still important for D27 to apply to some of these, in case she does not get into a school with great financial aid.

Other great suggestions that folks gave she has already looked into but crossed off for various reasons (Ex: Macalester which she would otherwise love but she is intent about being in nature and not a city)

We have not looked at Allegheny College yet, but it looks great (hiking from right by campus)! I will have her check it out.

Yes, we tend to think conservatively about her chances. I know how many kids out there get straight A’s these days so you just never know. I would rather she be pleasantly surprised than shocked and disappointed. But thank you for the optimist outlook - it helps put things in perspective.

Lastly, it is informative to know that some AOs will discount an applicant for lacking chemistry. Where could we find out if a school requires or suggests chemistry specifically? (I looked on the CDSs for some of the schools on her list but I could not find that information there). I tend to think more like Publisher that her five lab science classes tend to show her passion for the outdoors more than check boxes, which I think is a good thing. But then again, I am not an AO. But I am a long time educator and the students that always stand out the most to me are the students who are very passionate about something - whether it’s neuroscience, football, art history, or even watching Love Island :slight_smile: She definitely marches to the beat of her own drummer and says she is OK if a school denies her because she didn’t take chemistry. I also tend to agree that interest in the Humanities and Social Sciences seems to be a bit more rare these days and that not wanting to major in STEM, AI, or business might help her admissions chances.

Appreciate all the thoughts and suggestions!

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Has she considered Bard? She would almost definitely get in and while I’m not sure if they promise to meet all need we have known them to be extremely generous with aid among kids we know. Beautiful rural campus in the Hudson Valley, but with relatively easy access to NYC (which helps with an art history major and travel) and a strong arts program.

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When we went on college tours, the folks were able to answer that question about sciences. My DD graduated HS in 2006 so it’s been a while…but in her experience, the colleges wanted three lab sciences. Hers were biology, chemistry and anatomy/physiology.

She never took physics in HS, and also math was only to precalc. She was accepted to her top choice colleges. And she double majored in bioengineering and biology. She took a ton of higher level math and science courses in college.

I’d be glad to share what she does via message. Her lack of some of the courses in HS did not prevent her from doing what she is doing.

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Washington and Lee has fantastic financial aid, and is need-blind for admission. Plus your daughter might be competitive for the Johnson Scholarship, a more than full ride awarded to 10% of the incoming class. Besides top academics, leadership is valued, which your daughter has.

My recent graduate majored in Geology and Environmental Science and had a great experience. Lexington is a great small college town (with neighboring VMI there are approx. 4500 students) set in the gorgeous Shenandoah Valley. The Outing Club is I think the biggest club on campus and is very active.

The achool is well resourced, which means there are opportunities available you wouldn’t imagine. For example my son was paid to do research with a professor on coral reefs in Belize the summer after his sophomore year. His way was paid to attend national geology conferences. Etc.

The large majority of kids join Greek life, but my impression is that this means there’s a place for everyone. These kids are very academic and achievement driven (as they are at all similar schools) and Greek life does not change that. It is possible to have a fantastic experience without joining a fraternity/sorority (one of my son’s best friends didn’t). It is a friendly place, with the Speaking Tradition (greeting everyone you pass) and honor code playing a prominent role.

The school may or may not be a good fit for your daughter, but given the possible financial benefit I would say it is worth looking into.

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I love this attitude, and I frankly wish more of the great kids I encounter online felt free to have this attitude, as opposed to trying to conform to some generic profile designed to appeal to the same short list of the most generically-popular colleges.

As I see it, the only real “problem” is you need a lot of aid. And I think your analysis is basically right, that unfortunately some of the otherwise great potential colleges for her don’t have the aid budgets to be sure bets to both admit her and offer the financial package you need.

Still, I am dead sure there are some great colleges that would in fact be willing to give her the package you need, because they would so very much love to have her as a student, and would in fact be willing to use some of their aid budget that way. I am just not sure which individual colleges those will end up being.

So to me, this is all just an exercise in finding those colleges. And it could come from one of the schools with just a very large aid budget. But if not, it is likely going to take applying to a fairly long (although hopefully not unmanageable) list of colleges where she would be in their top 25% numerically, and then seeing which of those come through. And in fact, sometimes people do some negotiation in the end to get the offer they take. Like sometimes if you go to them with an offer they see as coming from a peer, and tell them if they match you will choose them instead, that can in fact work.

Anyway, point being I do think you are looking at this the right way. But I also think she might want to add a few more of the colleges we have been discussing.

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I think your daughter will get in ED to Carleton, and I would recommend EDing if it is absolutely her #1 choice and affordable, as due to its location it is often not a #1. Her academic profile is outstanding minus the lack of chem. ECs are strong and reflect well on her character, but are not unique. This is a great example of a very likeable unhooked profile where strong essays and rec letters could tip the scale to acceptance. If she does not ED Carleton, I would expect her to get in everywhere on the list minus Carleton (toss-up, but lower probability than ED), Midd, Williams, and Bowdoin. I would not be surprised at a waitlist or acceptance from any one of those last three, but would not be surprised at rejection either due to the high number of qualified candidates with similar profiles. Her interest in art history will help her stand out, though. It is also one potential reason not to ED Carleton. Williams is excellent for art history IIRC.

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I am going to join the group that thinks the lack of Chemistry is an issue. I think your daughter should try to take Chem next year if at all possible. She has a strong, but not outstanding, profile and you are looking for schools with the most generous need-based financial aid – which tend to be rigorous academic schools who definitely like kids who march to their own drummer –but IMO that marching should occur in conjunction with fulfilling the expected “standard” academic components that, unfortunately for her, almost always include an expectation of a year of chemistry.

It doesn’t have to be AP Chem. It could likely even be a UC Scout online chemistry class. But in my opinion, this is a small ask/price to pay for your student to be considered competitive to the colleges that will provide the need-based aid (and perhaps others that will provide merit aid) that will make the next four years easier/smoother/possible.

Also, I think most environmental studies programs require chemistry, and I would imagine that a chemistry class would also be useful for art history, at least in terms of provenance, forgery, etc. issues.

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