Chance Me/Match Me for Gov major (Grade 12, 3.81 GPA, 1500 'superscore' SAT, VA resident) [prefer <$60k]

Chance Me / Match Me
,
21

There are a LOT of universities that are very good for premed students.

If you are serious about possibly going to medical school, or to law school, then you need to be very careful about your budget. You specifically need to budget for a full 8 years (or 7 for law school) where the last 4 (or 3) years are likely to be expensive. A $160,000 annual family income is very good, but can get eaten up rather quickly by the cost of eight years of university unless you take the cost of education into account when deciding where to go and choose carefully.

Premed classes will be tough at any university ranked in the top 150, and probably more like 250, in the country. Both daughters had majors that overlapped a lot with premed classes, so I have heard lots of stories about how tough some of these classes are. Also, premed classes will be full of a lot of very strong and very serious students.

As an example, one daughter was at a university ranked roughly in the 120-something range, and had a boyfriend who had never had a B in his life (this former boyfriend is now an MD, this daughter is now a DVM). Why was he at a school ranked somewhere in the 120’s? Because it was a very good university with a very good premed program (and pre-vet program, the required classes are the same), it was a good fit (for both of them), and because it was affordable (with merit aid). Both are benefiting in a big way right now because they attended an affordable university for their bachelor’s degree.

Two doctors I know have said that other students in their MD program came from “all over the place”. My daughter who got a DVM said the same thing. People I have known in PhD programs (including biomedical programs) and law schools have said the same thing.

Medical school admissions rates can be gamed. One big part of this is who they count as applying to medical schools. You might for example need to get some sort of committee approval to be counted, and the criteria for getting the approval is likely to be similar to the criteria that make it more likely that you will get accepted to medical school.

And there are good research opportunities at a wide range of universities.

In terms of law school, you can major in anything and go on to law school. I happen to have known quite a few lawyers who majored in engineering, math, or computer science, but this is a function of what sorts of lawyers I have known (they are ones who deal with patents and related issues). One small issue that I see is that premed classes are ones where maintaining a high GPA is not easy, and a high GPA is important for law school admissions. I honesty do not know to what extent law school admissions takes this into account. There are of course patents related to biomedical research, which suggests that having a bachelor’s degree in a biomedical field should be important for at least a few lawyers.

Most people I know who started off with two majors or a major plus a minor eventually found one that they preferred, and went with that. I do know someone who graduated with two bachelor’s degrees in two different subjects, but what they have done since is just related to one of them.

The uncertainty that I see in terms of what you want to do is very normal and healthy. This is something that you can figure out after you get to university and get part way through. You will have lots of opportunities to try different things in university and see what makes the most sense for you personally. Some people do not figure out what path they want to take until some time after they get their bachelor’s degree (or degrees). That is perfectly okay. We all figure this out over time.

Your stats are very good, and are certainly sufficient to get you into many universities that would be very good for either premed or pre-law.

Regarding your list of schools: I am concerned that your out of state public schools are likely to cost more compared to in-state, and I do not see the advantage. U.Florida and U.Michigan are for example very good universities, but I do not see what they offer that you could not get in-state other than higher prices and even stronger competition for grades in premed classes. I would also run the NPCs for the private schools on your list and see what they are likely to cost.

Regarding West Point and the Air Force Academy, these seem like something that you need to be pretty sure that you want to do before you take either on. My understanding is that admissions at these schools feel the same way so I expect that you would need to be quite sure that you want to do it in order to get admitted.

Best wishes. To me it looks like you are thinking about the right things.

2 Likes
22

This is perfectly fine and not uncommon at all. You are still in HS! Focus on finding an affordable school where you will be happy. As I stated earlier, I would also consider the costs of grad school in your decision.

College has a lot of unstructured time, unlike HS. Do some research on activities that you enjoy, and ask if those activities and clubs are active and well attended.

Between attending class, studying, volunteering, attending clubs/activities, seeing friends etc, it is not hard to create the structure that you want.

3 Likes
23

None of these arguments will get you past an interview with a congressional nomination panel. The first and most important gate in the long, complicated process of being admitted to a service academy is securing a nomination; without one neither USMA nor USAFA can offer you an appointment, and those panels are expert at ferreting out motives. When you stand in that room, you will need to be very clear what is driving you to serve your country as an Army or Air Force officer and the consequences of that commitment.

If either law or medicine is your goal, the service academies are the least likely options on your list for achieving those outcomes as the academies are not in the business of producing lawyers or doctors, though the military does need them of course. The path to those functions is primarily by earning those degrees as a civilian and then applying to the services after. The handful (and I mean handful, as in perhaps five to ten slots out of a class of a thousand) of cadets/midshipmen selected to pursue law or medicine directly out of an academy is skimmed from the cream at the very top of the class, and there is no guarantee you will either end up at the top or be selected from that elite group even if you are.

You choose to attend a service academy because you want to serve your country as an officer in whatever capacity that service needs you. It takes a strong commitment to service to endure the rigor of a service academy and sustain you through the service years that follow. Our son commissioned from West Point in ‘19 and has served out his commitment in the Cyber branch. When he separates from the military at the end of this year, he will have given the Army eleven years of his young life. Depending on the branch you are selected for, you are committing from five to possibly more than ten years post commissioning. Are you OK with that? You lose a lot of autonomy in the military. You can major in whatever you wish, but there is no guarantee that you will end up doing anything with it while you serve. The academies are federally mandated to branch at least 69% of each class into combat arms. West Point branched 81% of the class of 2019 into combat arms. You can be sure that 81% of the class did not select a combat arms branch as their first choice, but all of those new officers were OK with that because they understood going in that the needs of the service would supersede any personal goals.

The service academies are “free” to cadets and midshipmen (and thus their parents), but there is nothing free about the commitment and its potential consequences. The decision to serve is a serious one. Saving your parents the cost of tuition is the least relevant reason to pursue this path (and not one you should mention anywhere in the application process, I might add).

If you do decide to pursue an appointment, I suggest you create an account on the serviceacademyforums.com site which is like CC for service academy applicants. The fine military folks there will be happy to answer any questions you have and guide you helpfully through the process. You might also want to examine a recent class profile to see a breakdown by activities, class rank, demographics, scores, etc. to see what the selection criteria are. Take special note of the athletic makeup of the class: 98.7% are varsity athletes with 85% of that pool earning letters and 63% acting as team captains.

Good luck to you whichever choice you make.

7 Likes
24

Please clarify this. Are you saying you want to become a lawyer and a doctor, OR that you want to take the courses you think are necessary to apply to either professional school.

Re: becoming a doctor…what have you already done that would make you think you want to be a doctor…or a lawyer for that matter.

You do NOT have to make up your mind about a future career as a HS student.

25

One school you may want to check out is College of Wooster. It’s a liberal arts college in Ohio and is known for its known as being a great place for academicky folks seeking out rigor. All students complete a senior thesis, one of the few colleges in the country where that is the case (along with Princeton). They’re also generous with merit aid. Although the link is marketing material, I find that the Colleges That Change Lives profiles tend to do a good job of giving a feel for its respective schools.

2 Likes
26

Wofford, as an example of a moderately selective school, appears to over-perform when considered by the percentage of its students who attend medical school:

For further ideas, consider other LACs that place highly in the site.

1 Like
27

Here are a few thoughts that may be helpful:

Assuming your 3.81 has very few B’s (just a couple or less), I think you may be a hair stronger academically, and as an applicant than you think. The courses you have taken show real strength IMO. Although you just miss achieving 1500, your English is quite high and at the level for every one of the schools on your list, even adjusting for being an OOS applicant at the publics.

The number of levels you have (7) is just too granular for it to be accurate. On the other hand, it is great you have safe schools. Both your assured and extremely likely schools are truly safe. Among the rest, I think you will be admitted to everything up to and including W&M + Oberlin and UF, too. While I can’t accurately predict the military acadamies, you will be close at UVA IMO. GTown, UNC, and U-M will be similarly challenging for your profile and seem like no’s given the info shared.

Good luck!

28

As a suggested activity - try to form fit your activities into the common app sooner rather than later. Although I think they will be fine, I am having trouble visualizing how they will look on paper.

29

A lot of good schools on the list so far, but I’ll make the case for W&L. I’m about to be a Junior at W&L as a pre-med student majoring in politics (global affairs conc.) like you are looking to.

To address some of your concerns:

Preferably <60k annually, but I’m open to all recommendations regardless

W&L has a very robust financial aid service. I’m unsure of your parents’ financial state, but W&L is 100% need blind on admission and will meet 100% of aid. That being said, we also have the Johnson scholarship of which 10% of the incoming class receives; the Johnson is a full-ride to W&L, including an additional $10,000 funding stipend to fund summer research & others. If you do want to apply to W&L, the Johnson application is due roughly the same time as ED, but you can apply to W&L through the RD route.

since I love both studying the law and medicine (and honestly really struggle to choose).

The beauty of attending a LAC is you can do whatever you want. Me attending a LAC has allowed me to pursue my interest in healthcare, health policy, and global affairs all at the same time. W&L encourages interdisciplinary exploration and gives you that time (major declaration isn’t until Winter term of Sophomore year). I’ve also been able to take interesting classes in our spring-term programs. My freshman year, I took a class on medical ethics, and this most recent Spring Term, I took a course on the Russia-Ukraine conflict with a former U.S. Ambassador to the Eastern Caucuses.

pre-med track, dual accreditation

Correct me if I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying, but “pre-med” isn’t a degree option, rather a track. This track encompasses your sciences, humanities, and a lot more needed for admission to an MD/DO school. It will not appear on your diploma. My diploma will not state pre-medical studies, but rather will appear on my transcript.

That being said, W&L has an incredibly strong pre-med community. While we are not necessarily known for being a feeder school into medical schools, we’ve had tremendous success with applicants receiving admission in their first application cycle. Our pre-med advisor, Brittany Carr, is an incredible person, and she takes the time out of her day to meet with and help pre-meds through course registration and a lot more. W&L’s faculty knows how to help pre-meds as well. I’ve had great fun getting to know, especially, our Chemistry department’s faculty. Nearly all professors at W&L are extremely approachable and know the struggles of pre-meds.

For the community, us pre-meds are a very tight-knit group. Because of the open nature of pre-medical studies, we come from a variety of majors. There are a few like myself who are studying social sciences, many of whom are studying biology, chemistry, psychology, and many more. However, we all know each other super well through each of the classes we all go through together at the same time, trauma bonding (for lack of a better term) over organic chemistry this past year was one of those highlights. You get to know your pre-med cohort really well and some of them will become your closest friends.

Goverment (or PoliSci depending on what the school offers)

You’re in luck! W&L is very well known for our politics program. Our politics department is very comprehensive and all of the classes have made me stretch my brain just a bit more. We have programs like our Wash-Term program, where students spend 6 weeks at the end of the year interning in Washington, D.C., across a variety of places, including the Hill, news outlets, non-profits, and more. You’ll find that W&L has very deep connections in D.C., more than you would assume (several people this year found internships through W&L Alums).

The way that our politics major is designed gives you the opportunity to specialize in a specific topic, while still exploring the inclusive nature of politics. W&L politics majors can concentrate in general politics, American/National Government, Global Affairs, and Political Philosophy. We also have sub-programs like MESA (Middle Eastern & South Asian studies), and others that allow you to refine your lens further.

Currently finishing up application process to become a Schoolhouse SAT tutor and volunteer at local Fire Dept. w/ hopes of starting EMT training before RD is due

If you come to W&L, look no further!!! Many of our students, including me, volunteer locally at the Lexington Fire Department. I’ve been personally involved in EMS for nearly 5 years, passed my NREMT-B about 1.5 years ago. I recently finished my cross-training and got my ProBoard Firefighter 1 & Hazmat Ops through VDFP, if you’re also interested in continuing on with working with first responders. Many of our students also volunteer back home from where they run originally as well.

LFD is special that we are also one of the few career departments in the entirety of Rockbridge County. Since we are combined volunteer/career, you volunteer on your own time. There is no running from class to the station because of the call, which makes it easier to balance classes. We run multiple appratuses, including 3 ALS ambulances, 3 engines, 1 tower, a brush truck, and several command vehicles.

If you do decide to apply to W&L, I’d be happy to chat with you about the application process for LFD, my experiences, and a lot more. I’d say its been monumental in helping me give back to the community around W&L in Lexington & Rockbridge County, and also helping make me a better provider.

Let me know if you’ve got any questions! Feel free to reach out; otherwise, I hope you seriously consider W&L!

8 Likes
30

I’m still very uninformed about a lot post-secondary routes overall so much of my post was based on initial thoughts. Although I do still want to serve because ofc I care about this country, considering how it’s not staunchly my #1 driving factor, I’m thinking less rigorous options (maybe ROTC or otherwise joining later to get my goals sorted?) would be the smarter move for me now. Thank you for all this useful info!

1 Like
31

I was saying that I wanted to take courses that fit on track for both.

I genuinely have great passion for learning about concepts that align with both careers (ex. anatomy, chemistry, bio, but also history, english, and the legal system). Getting to work in a clinic appeals to me because of the daily interaction with people and the fact that it requires patience and good listening skills. I like solving problems and untangling issues, which is why I enjoy both the thought of helping people sort out medical problems as well as putting together arguments about real-world problems from what I’ve learned through my school’s clubs (Women In Med, Debate, Women in Law, etc. which weren’t included in the post since I’m a base-level participant), my leadership program, and guest speakers, for example.

32

The good news is that you do not have to decide on a career right now. You can be any major and still be premed.

Find an affordable college where you would be happy for 4 years, volunteer, and participate in activities that you enjoy.

7 Likes
33

Not all colleges have a ROTC program on campus. You’ll need to check each college to see if they do and which service is offered. The nearest ROTC program may be at another college across town. Keep this mind because you may need to travel to another campus for those required 6am physical training sessions, as well as the mandatory military education classes.

ROTC scholarships are extremely competitive and look for leadership roles and varsity athletics among your ECs. Students who were JROTC in high school get preference. You must also pass all sorts of physical and psychological qualifications tests to be considered.

Students who want to be college ROTC often do not get scholarships for the first 2 years of college, but may get a scholarship for their last 2 when they commit to service post college graduation.

ROTC students also face long odds w/r/t med school or law school because it’s not your decision about whether you will apply. It’s your commanding officer’s decision. You cannot apply for professional graduate education without having your chain of command OK it first. Getting an OK is never a given and often requires that you at least partially fulfill your service requirement first.

4 Likes
34

If you think you may want to go pre-med, consider doing some medically related volunteering during high school. Just to see if you like the field. You may not enjoy working with the sick, injured, disabled, dying and demented elderly. If you find out now you don’t like it, then you can definitely rule it out.

Look around to see if any of your local hospitals offer summer volunteer programs for high school students. Also check your local nursing homes. Nursing homes are more likely to welcome a HS student.

Also take look at these 2 websites:

Mayo Clinic’s Explore Healthcare Careers

Explore Your Future in Healthcare

There are literally hundreds of jobs in healthcare that do not require becoming a physician.

I bet you’ve never even heard of many of them. Cardiovascular Profusionist? Medical Laboratory Scientist? Nuclear Medicine Technologist? Pathologist’s Assistant? Radiation Therapist? Anesthesiologist’s Assistant?

These jobs are important, are needed everywhere, and do not require that a young person spend the next 11-18 years of their life training for.

5 Likes
35

Did you run the NPC for Gtown and MIchigan - because you’ll need need aid.

I like your profile - but I think there are schools that might fit better.

You have LACs, small publics, and huge publics.

Forget the name - there’s lots of places for you to crush on this.

For example, at College of Charleston, you might qualify for the Charleston Scholars - a small group within Honors - and you have the MUSC down the block.

You have UF - how bout very similar school (not selective wise) Alabama - where you could be a part of the McCullough Pre Medical Scholars program. Or UGA.

You have Ann Arbor - how about much less expensive and good merit Ohio State - or very good Minnesota.

If you’re ok with JMU or VCU and they’re both great schools - you can cull the list. And you can cull Gtown if it won’t hit budget - but if you want to be in DC< you can look at American as an example.

I think your list is fine but it’s a bit all over the place - from LAC to large - so I might focus better there.

Good luck.

2 Likes
36

US citizen aiming for school in the country, first-gen immigrant, public HS in Virginia, ~160K annual household income

Cost Constraints / Budget

Preferably <60k annually with generous aid, I’d hate to be dropping something like $150k for undergrad, but I know it should be expected with my family’s income. I’m open to all recommendations regardless.

Intended Major(s)

Goverment/Public Health (or Chemistry double major), prefer a school that allows dual accreditation, but not a must. If it isn’t possible, I would major in Gov and minor in Chemistry/Public Health since I love both studying the law and medicine.

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 3.81

  • Weighted HS GPA: 4.26 in the school’s info system? 4.33 if calculated using a +0.5 for Honors and +1 for AP

  • My high school doesn’t do class rank.

  • 1490 SAT (760 Eng/730 Math), 1500 superscore

List your HS coursework

  • Eng 9 and 10 HN, AP Lang, AP Lit

  • Algebra 2 HN, AP Precalc BC, AP Calc BC, Multivariable and Linear Algebra DE

  • Bio 1 HN, Chem 1 HN, AP Physics 1, AP Chem, AP Bio

  • World Hist HN, AP World History, AP U.S. History, AP US Gov

  • French 1-3, French 4 DE senior year

  • Studio Art 1 and 3 (skipped level 2), AP Studio Art

  • 2 mandated PE courses, AP Psych, AP Macro/Micro Econ

Awards/Honors:

AP Scholar Award, 2nd place in a Debate Competition, plus a teacher-nominated award, and National Commended Merit Scholar

Extracurriculars
(Include leadership, summer activities, competitions, volunteering, and work experience)

10th: Red Cross (1 yr), ESOL Peer tutoring (1 yr), National Honor Society

11th: National Honor Society + Weekly Peer Mentoring program at local ES (1 yr), Science NHS, Art NHS, French NHS, Math NHS, around 60 volunteer hours total

- Student Leadership Development Program (12/400 students that applied picked. Was mentored under the School Board Chair and with School Board members, created/presented my own local policy changes to SBM.)

- Student Intern for League of Women Voters (training right now, work starts in fall)

- Congressional Debate team

- Writing Center (strictly capped at 50 students out of my school’s 2000, must be nominated by teacher to apply)

Summer + 12th grade: Plan to continue all previous activities, but in addition…

- Executive Board for French NHS (director of membership) and Science NHS

- Taking Intro to Kinesiology 100 at a local Uni (3 cr.) + Intro to Med Assistant, recieved a B

- Paid tutor K-12, ranging from elementary school topics to SAT lower-level prep

- Weekly volunteer at Fire Dept. as an Administrative Member (~6 hours a week)

- Member of my county’s global leaders program, ran by a School Board member

LORs

  • AP Chem teacher (hasn’t written it yet, might have to drop her)
  • Counselor Rec Letter
  • AP Lang teacher

Schools

As of right now, I’m at least trying to get all the schools I want to apply for Early Action 100% solidified. If I ED anywhere, it’ll probably be UVA or W&M since these are my absolute top 2 choices, but it’s highly unlikely to be anywhere else.

I’m pretty good on my likely schools and my safeties but it’s my hard targets and reaches I’m having trouble narrowing the schools down on, because I feel like I have a lot that seem similar initially, but I haven’t had the time/don’t know how to research them further (ex. choosing between applying to Gettysburg vs. Lafayette vs. Oberlin, or RIT vs. URochester). I don’t have access to financial aid info yet, and while I’m working to get it with my family ASAP, this has also severely hindered my college search.

Schools I’m 100% on:

Schools I’m unsure of and am trying to pick between:

There are a lot of schools with expensive sticker prices because I’ve yet to put their tuition through the NPC since I don’t have enough info as of right now.

I am NOT going to apply to even half of these, I just want thoughts on how likely acceptance is and how to find out more about them so I can narrow this down to 2-4 more schools. I’m having an especially hard time because at the 10-30% acceptance range, there seem to be TONS of good schools with good biomedical science and political science programs and similar prices, I just don’t know which ones would be most worthy of investing my time in. It also doesn’t help that I’m not picky about weather or location, as long as it isn’t in the middle of absolute nowhere.

  • Likely: Purdue, Rutgers
  • Toss-up: UIUC, URochester
  • Lower Probability: Gettysburg, Lafayette, Oberlin
  • Low Probability: Davidson, Williams, Georgetown, UNC Chapel Hill, WashU, Emory
37

Congrats on a nice record.

Let me ask you this -

How are UVA, GMU and Nova assured - edit, I see NOVA for assured UVA admission.. I know you’d get into GMU - but is it formally assured?

Agree with your likelies and toss ups but for UIUC A&S and not allied health (which doesn’t seem to work), then maybe not. But I would not apply to UIUC - because you have a budget unless that budget isn’t strict. I would put an Ohio State or UMN in its place because they will be much cheaper. Or Michigan State. Or if you want a more small town, flagship and cheaper, WVU. Pitt is yet another I’d get rid of. You could get under budget but not likely whereas a UMN again is another city school or a College of Charleston is Pitt on a far smaller scale, but with Med U of SC right down the street - and you’d get Honors at a minimum and decent merit. UAB would be a really inexpensive Pitt - under $30K a year. All three will beat Pitt in cost, even if you were lucky enough to get merit - and that would be lucky.

I think you get into two if not all three of your lower probability - but again, budget is a question - at Rochester, Lafayette, and Oberlin specifically. There are far less expensive LACs that will get you to the same place - a Wooster, Kalamazoo, Allegheny, and really so many more. A U Denver or Elon would be less than Rochester, CWRU although CWRU is worth a flyer - they do some big merit,etc.

Low probability - have you run the NPCs at each - because Davidson, Williams and Georgetown don’t have merit aid, as examples. Will they come in at $60K or less? I wouldn’t think you’d get into any of the three but that’s secondary. See if the cost is right via the NPCs.

Also have you budgeted for med school? That’s another $400K+ - and you’re unlikely to get aid. So you should be saving now. Many schools are great at governemnt.

If I lived in VA, you have great publics - in addition to UVA, W&M, and Va Tech, you have JMU, CNU, and UMW. CNU was featured prominently during the Trump trials the other year. Government can be great from so many. My daughter worked for arguably the top think tank during her DC semester from a regional public. Her cohort member at C of C is in Gtown SFS for his masters with a focus on global health. So schools aren’t limiting - people are, esepcailly in this major. So why not just apply to the VA state schools vs. out of state publics?

Honestly, if I’m looking at med school or even jobs in the public eyes, I’d probably stop right there in state. You just have too many fantastic public options and you can save a boat load toward med school.

But others you mention I’m guessing would come in too high. Why not choose a Wooster instead of Oberlin which will be much cheaper or a Furman instead of or in addition to Davidson - and Furman will throw significant aid your way. Or a Rhodes, etc.

Every dollar you save now presumably helps you avoid that much for med school…or law or MPH if you change your mind. And where you go isn’t going to matter - but how you do will.

So you’ll get into some of these on the bottom of your list…but why bother given the cost and your budget?

Especially with med school, it’s time to be a consumer. Going to a great undergrad likely matters little for med school. Look at the Vandy 2021-2023 grad stats I found. Even at non top med school names, a very small % of grads get in. But I’m putting the U Kentucky med school graphic below - of colleges represented - schools like S Indiana and lots of no names. You don’t need the big names…you do need big $$ though or you overburden yourself even more than you have to with debt.

So you have great stats. Let someone buy you in to help save your $$ later. And at a minimum, schools like UIUC and Pitt put you up against the budget and give you no room for additional costs.

Good luck.

First is the UK med school graphic, then Vandy.

image
image831×1018 229 KB

2023-Annual-Report.pdf

1 Like
38

Deleted as superfluous.

39

Yeah, I was correcting - at least in the first paragraph - as you typed. I figured out what they meant. Thanks though for keeping me honest.

1 Like
40

I wouldn’t apply to any of the larger public universities since you already have the NOVA-U.Va option. University of Virginia is a very reputable public university. If you or your parents insist, limit you focus to the DC-MD-VA-DE area. You wouldn’t really gain much more than a higher OOS tuition bill. I would apply to the liberal arts colleges: Gettysburg, Lafayette, Oberlin, & Davidson. I’d drop Williams College.