Help a Confused Pre-Law Rising Jr. VA. High GPA, Mid-ECs, Pre-Law (econ,poly,psych?) [4.0 GPA, top 5%, 1540 SAT]

Chance Me / Match Me
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Hi I’m a Virginia rising Junior trying to figure out how to grow the next two years and where I should even begin to aim (is stuff like ivy+/t20 worth trying?)- Ihave no idea about admissions to be frank. Just kinda need a reality check.

Demographics

  • US Citizen
  • northern va
  • Public School (average)
  • no “hooks”

Upper Middle Class. Not necessarily a budget constraint but depends on the type of school if parents worth paying (ie not worth paying for a 90K oos if its not on par or better than in state options)

Intended Major(s): Something along pre-law (economics or political science), possible statistics/data science/stem-ish double major

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • UW GPA: 4.0/4
  • Weighted (as of end of 10th): 4.70
    • Honors .5 boost, AP/DE 1.0 boost
  • Class Rank: top 5%
  • SAT: 1540

List your HS coursework (sr year = expected)

  • English: 9H, 10H, AP Lang, AP Lit
  • Math: Alg2, AP Precalc, AP Stat, AP BC, Multivar (DE)
  • Science: Physics H, Chem H, AP Physics C Mech, AP Chem or Bio (idk?)
  • History: Honors WH, APWH, APUSH, AP Gov/Comp Gov
  • Language other than English: Did Spanish I middle school, Spanish II and III high school
  • Visual or performing arts: Band (1st chair) 9th and 10th (dropped)
  • Other academic courses:
    • 4 years business/marketing: 9th-Honors, 10th-DE, 11th/12th-no gpa boost but just marketing classes
    • AP Econ 11th grade
    • Free block 12th grade who knows what to do

College credit

  • AP World History: expecting 4/5
  • AP Statistics: likely 5
  • DE Business course: A

Awards (these really overlap with my activities)

  • National Congressional Debate Finalist (Top ~20 nationally)
  • Two-time DECA ICDC Finalist
  • Two-time Top 10 DECA ICDC Exam Score
  • Two-time DECA State Finalist with multiple state awards
  • Top debater in Virginia at state tournament (keeping exact ranking vague for privacy)
  • Multiple regional debate awards
  • School “Top Student” award

I might try to enter some political essay or legal competitions?

Extracurriculars
(Include leadership, summer activities, competitions, volunteering, and work experience)

  • DECA (9-12): VP Hospitality (10), Vice President (11)
  • Debate: Event Captain (11), Member (9-12)
  • Voting board member for local nonprofit that runs multiple youth programs, 50 local partners, etc. (10-12)
  • School store marketing head (10)
  • Highly selective summer law program (free, week-long, can’t say for privacy) (11)
  • Band (9-10), first chair in my instrument
  • Academic Team, no great team achievements, just member for now hoping to be captain by senior year (9-12)
  • Over 100 hours so far library volunteering, very involved within multiple programs and help run teen programs. Might do this as a LOR?

Essays/LORs/Other

Not really sure what my essay topic would be yet.
Teacher recommendations will probably be solid but not extraordinary.
I may be able to get a very strong recommendation from volunteering/community work outside school.

Schools
In state

  • UVA (EA)
  • William and Mary
  • URichmond
  • Washington & Lee (not sure about what LACs are like)

Out of state

Publics

  • Public
    • Michigan
    • Berkeley
    • UCLA
  • Private
    • Yale
    • Harvard
    • Princeton
    • Brown
    • Duke
    • Georgetown
    • Chicago
    • Northwestern

I’m also unsure whether expensive OOS options make sense compared to strong state stuff like UVA or w&m

Sorry if my post was confusing, I still have a couple years to figure out exactly what my plans are but any tips/thoughts would be helpful (feel free to be critical I’m trying to not be stupid :slight_smile: thanks)

I’m also super open to college ideas, I don’t know much about creating a list so most of this is just from personal experience or college rankings online

btw feel free to ask any questions to clarify this is my first time on this website!

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Do you mean Washington and Lee?

You are a very strong student. You have some fabulous instate options! I think most of your OOS schools are reaches…as they are for most applicants. But if you have a sure thing that is affordable on your application list that you like, apply to some reaches. You might want to shorten that list at some point. It’s going to be a lot of work to get all of those essays done. And present tippy top applications to that many reach schools.

Keep up your excellent academic record and your ECs are fine. If you continue like you are now…you have a chance of acceptance at many colleges…or not…hard to say with highly competitive colleges.

@heavyweightcollege @AustenNut

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Do you have any idea what you and your family can afford?

I understand that you’re interested in pre-law, meaning that you are considering law school as a long range goal. Beyond that, can you talk about what your interests are - both academic and non-academic. Also, what are you curious about? That’s a wide open question. Anything at all.

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For my family cost shouldn’t be a limiting factor. I think the main thing for my parents if this makes sense is not paying the really high (80-100k) tutitions unless its a “good” school, as in school is better/ivy+ level to justify the cost over in-state.

I’m mostly interested in economics, public policy, politics, and statistics/data science.

I enjoy writing and public speaking.

Non-academically, I enjoy reading, podcasts, reading the news, volunteering, etc.

I’m pretty curious about government and public policy.

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Thank you!

Yup that was a typo.

Do you have any suggestions for how I can be more competitive for oos schools based on what I have so far? Any tips would be great

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The OOS schools on your list are highly competitive for admissions. Continue to do well, as you are now. Apply and see. I believe you have a chance of being accepted, but there really isn’t a way to chance a student when the acceptance rates are so very low. If you do…or don’t get accepted, you will never know why.

So…be your best…you, and hope for the best.

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If you would like to combine your interests in political science and economics in a single major, consider colleges with an available program in public policy. Moreover, this would allow more space in your schedule for a second major in, say, data science.

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Thank you, that’s really helpful! Is public policy a good degree if I, let’s say, didn’t go into Law? Does it have other applications?

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If you envision practical approaches to managing ostensibly complex projects and programs, then public policy could be a great major for you. Your early career, should you not attend law school, would be developed through internships at agencies or companies of particular interest to you — so be sure to consider colleges that offer integrated internship opportunities. A master’s in the field may be suitable, depending on your goals.

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Note that statistics / data science is helpful for any kind of social science or related subject (like public policy). Since you have a strong math background, you may want to consider taking some higher level courses in that area to supplement your social science interests.

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The University of Virginia is a highly regarded school (a “Public Ivy”) and will set you up well for any law school.

Therefore, I don’t think any of your OOS public options are worth their cost (close to $90k/year), and honestly, most of the privates (close to, or exceeding, $100k/year) probably aren’t either, IMO. If I were in your shoes, I’d save my money for an elite law school.

That said, you’re a competitive applicant for any of these schools, so feel free to shoot your shot at any of them. Good luck!

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Agree. UVA is a fantastic school which you can attend at a massive discount. Are your parents willing and able to fund roughly $400,000 for undergrad, and an additional $300,000 for law school? If not, then you should take this advice go to UVA (or any school where you can get a discounted tuition) and apply the funds your parents were willing to spend on undergrad to law school (assuming they are willing). It is much harder to get discounted tuition for law school than it is for college.

And, some gratuitous law school advice. Don’t go straight through from undergrad to law school. Take one (and preferably two or more) years off in between to get some professional work experience. The legal job market in both the public and private sectors has become brutal, and starts the moment you set foot in the door. Students who go straight through from college are often at a disadvantage as compared with their classmates who come into law school with work experience.

Best of luck!

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For someone seriously interested in law school, money matters. Law school is already over $300k now so assume it will be at least $350 by the time someone is applying in 5-6 years (as it is not advisable to apply directly from undergrad). Plus, the new caps on federal loans for professional schools impacts the availability and cost of loans for law school.

While I can understand wanting to leave Virginia for undergrad, I would not recommend full pay, out of state at Michigan etc., as opposed to in-state at UVA, for undergrad. Sure, apply to Northwestern etc. to see what the options might be in spring of senior year. In the meantime, visit some LACs to see what you think about the smaller school experience – Univ Richmond and W&L are more similar than different, so maybe visit some of the PA LACs like Haverford, Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr (all women, if applicable), Dickinson, to get a feel for the smaller school experience.

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The College of William & Mary is also a “public Ivy”. It’s in state acceptance rate of 37% makes it easier to be admitted to than UVA which has an in state acceptance rate of only 22%. Both are highly respected. W&M provides a nice alternative to UVA not only on the issue of competitiveness for admission but also in terms of size. W&M is smaller with an undergrad enrollment of 6700 + a small grad school while UVA has an undergrad enrollment of 17,100 with several thousand more grad students. That gives you something to choose between them. Visit and see which you prefer.

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Maybe another year of Spanish?

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I’m going to stick with U VA and William & Mary as examples of how you can compare colleges to see how one or another best meets your needs and interests. For any college, look at what majors they offer because colleges often have their own unique take on things.

Looking at UVA, they offer the traditional Econ, Politics, and Psych majors you are interested in, and they also offer an “interdisciplinary major” as an option, which allows you to create your own unique combination of the things you’re interested in. UVA also offers a number of really interesting majors which you don’t find everywhere. There really is no such thing as a pre-law track, so you can major in anything. See if any of these sparks your curiosity:

Political Philosophy, Policy, & Law (a great pre-law major)
Political and Social Thought
Public Policy and Leadership
Global Culture and Commerce
Global Environments & Sustainability
Environmental Thought & Practice
Health, Ethics, and Society
Government minor
Urban and Environmental Planning
Foreign Affairs minor
History of Science & Technology
Science & Technology minor
Science, Technology, and Society minor
Technology and the Environment minor

Any of these combined with Economics as a second major or a minor would be a powerful combination.

Data Science is also available as a minor.

The list of majors available at the College of William & Mary is more traditional although they do provide the option of a self-designed major which allows you to combine the best & most interesting (to you) elements of different departments into your own unique package. However, William & Mary does offer something rare and even unique that you won’t find at UVA, which is their partnership program with the University of St Andrew’s in Scotland. You spend 2 years at each university and after 4 years you receive a joint degree from both institutions. Your first year is at William & Mary while the next 3 years are individually planned. You can read more about it on their website. Another special opportunity at W&M is the chance to spend a semester at the William & Mary Washington Center in D.C. This is a specially designed package which combines an internship in D.C. for 6 credits with an additional 6 credits in coursework while you are in DC. This is a great opportunity for a Givernment or pre-law student.

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This. As a practicing attorney, I give this advice to everyone who tells me that they want to go to law school.

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Typo or Freudian slip? Either way, names like Williams, Smith, Bates, Colby, Macalester, Claremont-McKenna and Bowdoin are going to sound pretty fungible unless you already have some desire to go to a small, rural or suburban college with a strong sense of community (and connections.) UVA and W&M are on the same par educationally; have attractive green and leafy campuses; and - because they’re state supported - no one will blame you for not giving them a nickel once you graduate. :smile:

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Congratulations on building a strong profile in high school so far! You will be well-prepared to be successful in college.

If you’re interested in the highly rejective colleges on your list, continue your Spanish, as @Mjkacmom hinted. Many of the schools on your list expect to see a foreign language class every year, even for students who come in to high school with foreign language credits. Additionally, many selective colleges expect students to have taken the core science trilogy of biology, chemistry, and physics. So I would make sure you have at least one biology class rather than two chem and two physics.

In terms of tips to make you a stronger applicant, make sure to get to know your junior year teachers well such that they would be able to write a recommendation letter that really reflects you and your strengths. (You will probably give them a brag sheet as well, but knowing you well will likely enhance their letter.) Additionally, you will want to ask two teachers in the spring to write you a letter; one should be from a humanities/social science teacher and the other should be from a STEM teacher.

In terms of the college search process, there are a few different things that I would recommend.

  1. Find schools where you are extremely likely to be admitted, that will be affordable, and that you would happy to send in your enrollment deposit and attend. You should have at least one, and I prefer having at least two such schools on a list. For some students, those can be harder schools to find, but they are the most important schools on the list. I imagine you will get into UVA and W&M, but I don’t they’re extremely likely admits for you (or anyone) due to their low admit rates.

  2. Start visiting nearby college campuses to get a feel for what different experiences are like. For instance, you might visit:

  • Catholic U. (D.C.): About 3200 undergrads

  • American U. (D.C.): About 7500 undergrads with a more set-apart/suburban feel in a major city

  • George Washington U. (D.C.): About 12k undergrads with an uber-urban feel

  • Gettysburg (PA ): About 2100 undergrads with a more remote location

  • Goucher (MD): About 1k undergrads in a more suburban part of Baltimore

  • U. of Maryland - College Park: About 31k undergrads for a big state school experience

These schools are probably all within 90m of your location in northern Virginia, and they will help you to get a better sense of what size school you prefer, how you feel about locations from super-urban to more remote and a lot of stuff in-between. For every college, note some things that you like, but also reflect on what the campuses tell you about your own preferences. That will help you to figure out what you want out of your college experience, which will then let others (like counselors or people on this board) to better offer suggestions.

Those visits may also help you to think about how you feel about things like Greek life, significant enthusiasm for intercollegiate sports, the vibe of the student body, etc.

  1. Whenever someone has a strong interest in this area, my gut reaction is to focus in on capitals, whether the nation’s capital or state capitals. Why? Because it’s a great path to get experience during the school year, which can make it easier to get summer experiences, and post-graduation jobs.

In that respect, I’d look at the D.C. colleges mentioned above (and add in Howard and Georgetown), and then I’d think about:

  • Virginia Commonwealth (1.1 mile to the VA State Capitol and would qualify as a sure thing for you in terms of admissions). About 21k undergrads. You’re already thinking about U. of Richmond which is 6.6 miles to the VA State Capitol.

  • St. John’s College (MD): About 0.2 miles from the Maryland State House. This is not a school for everyone, but for the right person, it can be a fabulous place. This is marketing material, but I think the Colleges That Change Lives profiles give a pretty good sense of their schools: St. John’s College – Colleges That Change Lives . About 500 students at the Annapolis campus and around 400 at the Santa Fe campus (students can take classes at either campus).

  • Dickinson (PA ): A bit further from the the state government, but it’s definitely in commuting distance (30m, 23.3 miles) if you’d have a car. About 2300 grads.

  • College of New Jersey: 3.9 miles to the NJ State House

  • Providence (RI): 1.7 miles to the RI State House

  • Brown (RI): 0.8 miles to the RI State House

  • Trinity College (CT): 1.6 miles to the CT State Capitol

  • SUNY-Albany: 4.1 miles to the NY State Capitol

  • Siena (NY): 5.6 miles to the NY State Capitol

  • Union (NY): 18 miles to the NY State Capitol

  • Colby (ME): 20.2 miles (23m) to the ME State Capitol

Massachusetts…among others there are:

  • Boston U.: 2.9 miles to the MA State Capitol

  • Northeastern U. 2.7 miles

  • Suffolk: 0.2 miles

  • Harvard: 3.5 miles

  • Tufts: 6.3 miles

  • Wellesley: 13.6 miles, women’s college

  • Brandeis: 13.4 miles

And that’s just heading northeast!

If one is interested in presidential politics, going to college in New Hampshire or Iowa could be very interesting due to their early primaries/caucuses that mean that presidential hopefuls set up lots of campaigning infrastructure in those states..

Anyway, I just threw out a lot of ideas. If you start getting a clearer of what you want in a college, I’d be happy to brainstorm even more.

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That’s interesting. Same is true for medical school these days.