Choosing Between Private and Public Schools...

Parent Cafe
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<p>One of my main problems with public and private schools is the sorting of children by chronological age. No civilization in the history of the world before ours has kept children and teenagers so segregated for so very long from the adult world, and I can’t say I think the consequences have been wholly salutary.</p>

<p>The word “teenager” was coined in 1941 (Popular Science Magazine), and was commonly used until the late 40s. During the War, when older brothers (and fathers) went off to Europe or the Pacific, 13, 14, and 15 year olds ran farms, small businesses, repaired homes, drove tractors. </p>

<p>When the brothers came home, they found themselves competing for jobs, education (and WIVES) with their younger siblings. It became a critical need to get these younger siblings, (and women generally, and African-American women in particular in the ship-building cities) out of the workforce, and out of the world of adults generally speaking. A new subculture was born - segregated, isolated, preyed upon manufacturers of teenage trrends. </p>

<p>The term “teenager” conflates 13 year olds with 19 year olds, and not to the benefit of the latter. Our school-based culture is just an outgrowth of the same.</p>

<p>Teenagers today are sexually mature a full three years earlier than they were in 1900; yet, our high schools and our private schools are based around a faded image of teenagers from the turn of the 20th century. </p>

<p>To me, the quality of a public school or a private school can be judged by the degree to which the students are enabled to spend time in, and learn from, the adult world.</p>

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<p>DadGuy,</p>

<p>Good luck with your decision, but IMHO you don’t have a compelling reason to go the private route – if for no other reason than you don’t say why your public HS is failing your child. In our case (about an hour up the coast from cnp55), we knew the school was failing our D and we knew exactly why and we knew the school had NO intention of rectifying the situation. (Note: It’s ALWAYS a bad sign when public HS school board members send their children to private schools.) So we treated the situation as if D had a serious illness, and we spent the necessary $$$ to “treat” that illness. It was money very well spent, even though the only difference between the public HS and private HS was this: The private HS treated our D as student, whereas the the public HS treated her as a “product” of the institution. Attitude – that was the difference.</p>

43

<p>Kid 1: private K- 3, public 4-12, private LAC now
Kid 2: public K-6, private 7-9, switching to public HS next fall for 10-12
Kid 3 public so far (K-3)</p>

<p>We moved to where we live now to avail ourselves of a great public school system with an exceptional neighborhood grammar school. We intended to be 100% public but we learned you have to take it kid by kid.</p>

<p>We sent our middle child to private 7,8,9 in part because of worries about underachievement (turned out to be ADD related.) </p>

<p>We saw that our D had coasted through public jr high to some extent because she was well behaved and smart. The class sizes were huge, and the output demanded was minimal. She was diligent though and did fine. If you have an academically inclined kid who learns well in any environment and motivates him/her self, an undemanding school can be okay, if not optimal. </p>

<p>HS was a bit better-- and the public HS was key for her sport; she would not have had nearly the level of competition in a small private school. </p>

<p>NOTE: My experience in public HS in California 30 years ago was quite different. For example, in the '70s, the BEST and most experienced teachers were the AP teachers. At D’s public, it is often the newbies who get ‘stuck’ with teaching the AP class. :eek:</p>

<p>For our smart slacker S we thought he’d learn absolutely nothing in the public school environment. Thus we paid for private school. The private school was HEADS AND SHOULDERS above the public, particularly:</p>

<p>-experienced, non-burned-out teachers
-small classes
-tons of enrichment activities & electives
-high academic standards
-incredible LD services (little did we know we’d use them!)</p>

<p>As happy as we have been with the excellence of this school, our S has yearned from the beginning to get out of the small, homogeneous social environment. Now that his grades have come up and his study skills have been beefed up, we are happy to let him go back to public school (and thrilled to get out of paying all that tuition.)</p>

<p>He is going to a different public HS than our D did because it has an IB program that will better suit his learning style and interests. </p>

<p>My bottom line: if you have a kid who is really academically able your kid will be fine anywhere. If you have a kid with special circumstances, take a good look at the specific pros and cons and pick based on that kid’s needs.</p>

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<p>If I may be so forward to ask…What terrible thing happened at Milton Academy last year?</p>

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<p>I think it involved underage sex between a girl and several members of an athletic team. Then there was the Groton scandal whereby a alumnus was suing the school for having protected him from being raped by a teacher. The case had dragged on for years and was in court when the Milton Academy case landed in the papers.</p>

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<p>We moved a lot and sometimes the kids were in private schools and sometimes in public, but in the end they finished up at private high schools because the publics just weren’t meeting their needs for one reason or another. My D was getting harassed by a clique and academically bored besides; my son was bored witless. The public schools, IMHO as a public school teacher, do a great job with the middle 80%–it’s the top 10% and the bottom 10% who may need a different environment.</p>

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<p>unless you have one like my two who could probably fall at both ends of that spectrum depending on subject :wink:
I just spent two hours this evening, at the aquarium, which my daughters marine science teachers reserved as part of the review of the year. I was given a sheet of the subphyla they covered, and told to ask lots of questions and take notes. D took me around, and even though an oral exam was pretty difficult for her- I enjoyed getting more of a chance to see what she was learning.
Private schools, once D got into middle school, didn’t need parents anymore for field trips :frowning:
With public school, even though I didn’t get to go on the Hawaii or NYC/DC trip, I did get to spend a week in the San Juan Islands with 8th graders, and 3 days in Eastern Washington with her Marine science class, and a bonus of a retired marine science teacher not only spearheaded relevant field trips in area schools, but has published as many science related guides as Joyce Carol Oates has novels!</p>

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<p>DMD, I think public schools do a much better job with the two extremes than the kids in the middle. The lowest quadrant is protected by special ed law, and those kids get unbelievable services, private aides, individualized instruction, etc. The highest quadrant, or at least the top 10-20%, can enroll in AP classes, etc. and usually have math teams, science olympiads, debate teams, yearbook writing, etc. as additional ways to feed them intellectually.</p>

<p>I think the mass in the middle (particular the true 50%, not the lowest quadrant) is completely forgotten about. Elementary schools are taught to the lowest common denominator, so the average kids are left behind there. Once classes are leveled, those kids don’t usually make the cut-off grade wise to be in the Honors or AP level, so they sort of muck along.</p>

<p>I’ve always felt that kids at the two extremes have the best shot in public school.</p>

49

<p>allmusic
I don’t know if you have read my other posts but I have two girls with ADD and learning differences.</p>

<p>The oldest taught herself to read when she was 3, and she was quite accomplished by the time she was ready for kindergarten when the local teacher advised us that she would not be able to accomomdate her in her class.</p>

<p>We found a co-op to buy us another year while we figured out what to do, and since the public schools could/would not address her combination of “giftedness” and learning disabilties, she ended up at a private school, which did both very well, because they were able to accomodate individual differences- it wasn’t a school for kids with “disabilties”, rather you needed IQ score for placement.</p>

<p>Over the years we would relook at the gifted public school program, and what we saw wsn’t worth removing her from the private school track, despite that we were blue collar workers, with a blue collar income.</p>

<p>Our younger daughter also started out in private schools, she has challenges that again the public school system would/could not address.However, byt the time she was going into third grade she was not reading, ( she is dyslexic-but not textbook so difficult to diagnose), and I was very concerned. The public school two blocks from our home, was a great building, but the special ed teacher used shaming as a teaching technique * while I was observing*, so I was not comfortable having her attend that school.</p>

<p>I was able to get her into a public alternative school that I had wanted her sister to attend, however during her 6 years there - 5 of them she had an IEP, but it was not written well, or even followed. Some teachers even told me that they didn’t give her accomodations, and the whole time she was there, she made little if any progress ineht areas she needed help with. Legally, IEP reports are to come out on the same schedule as grades, but hers never did, I was lucky if I got a report by the end of the school year despite going to teachers/principal district. A common result was to get ONE report the last week of school, and for it to show that she had made ZERO progress in math for example all year ( plus she was about 3 years behind). THe teacher would then reply that she was sure that it wasn’t accurate. ?</p>

<p>She changed schools for high school, where she is getting caught up in math- with one summer class she should be at grade level, so that she can continue on in her advanced science program this fall. :)</p>

<p>However, I admit this school is unusual, if you want to try, you can enroll in AP, she has several friends who are in her remedial math classes, and in the marine science class with the top students in the state. SHe is also taking an AP Euro class, and while it is difficult, because of both the holes left by her middle school education and her learning challenges ( she has severe processing difficulties among others), the history teacher makes himself available to all after school and in evenings. That is fairly unusual in the district, but not in the school.</p>

<p>My oldest graduated from private high school, and has graduated from Reed COllege, a fairly challenging school with a biology degree( and published a 45 pg thesis)- she was also retested for her learning differences to see if she needed accomodations on the GRE ( she had them in college), her disabilties are still there, and in fact she was surprised by the depth of her math difficulties, but she still got through calculus & stats at Reed, along with all the science required for her major.
A small college like Reed was pretty adaptable for many students who are gifted with learning or other challenges, and while public schools are technically required to serve students under IDEA or the civil rights act, I haven’t seen or heard of an area that does it well, it seems parents are lucky if they don’t have too many complaints</p>

<p>so I would agree with DMD assessment of serving the kids in the middle better- public schools don’t serve the needs of those on the ends-percentage wise.</p>

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<p>“The highest quadrant, or at least the top 10-20%, can enroll in AP classes, etc. and usually have math teams, science olympiads, debate teams, yearbook writing, etc.”</p>

<p>This presumes that AP classes, math teams, science olympiads etc. are AVAILABLE. All these were cut from our local public school system along with every other program that might REMOTELY serve the top 10%. And don’t even START me on the topic of Guidance!</p>

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<p>Allmusic:</p>

<p>Again, it depends on the school and the school’s location. To add to EK’s comments, one family in our district sued to have SPED implemented–it wasn’t although it was on the books. But the child’s disabilities were so severe that he could not be accommodated within the school system. He was sent to a special school–at district expenses.
For the higher end kids, the school’s location near Harvard has been a big plus. But if if were located in a distant suburb with few or no advanced classes, I don’t know what we would have done.</p>

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<p>Our story (so far):</p>

<p>Both children went to parochial elementary schools. I consider them “in-between” the private and public. In reality they are private, of course, but the tuition is no where near the levels of most of the privates in our area. Plus, the parochial system is extremely popular here, and many become neighborhood schools with at least a religious and economic mix of students.(Racial diversity typically depends on the neighborhood mix).</p>

<p>My son went to our public HS. Unlike most publics, it is very small (approx. 100 per class). The big plus was that it did have more personal attention. No one was really a number. The big negative was the lack of class and extra-curricular options. There were just too few students to have the variety found at many of the larger schools. He did very well at the small school, however, and so far, is doing well in college (a private).</p>

<p>My daughter started at a private HS. It had about 2x the population as the public – not significantly larger, but we thought it would offer more opportunities. She wanted to try it. We ended up switching to the public her second year. It was not her decision to change. It was primarily our decision. Academically she was doing fine at the private. Socially, she had a tough start, but by the end of the first year, she didn’t want to leave her new friends. It was a very difficult decision, and old posts of mine will better describe our ambivalence. </p>

<p>We had several reasons for the switch. For one, we did not feel that the private was giving her any more opportunities. For some reason, she refused to get involved in any EC activities open to her, and many were closed. Frankly the talent pool was so much greater at the private, and the competition higher (You had to be REALLY good to be in the choir, the sports teams, etc.). More students were from wealthier families, and had far more opportunities as children (music / drama lessons, sports training, travel, etc.) .<br>
Had she been one of the “superstars”, the private would have probably been better. There is no doubt that the opportunities offered there were of a higher caliber. But what use is that, if you cannot partake in it, but only watch from the sidelines? The perceived value received at the private was not worth the cost. We could afford it, but it drained the college savings. It seemed wiser to us, to save the high school tuition, and apply it to college tuition, hoping she might have more choices. (Others feel the privates offer a better path, and thus they “pays for themselves” financially as well as academically).</p>

<p>Plusses for the switch: We are not constantly asked for extra fees and donations. There is little racial diversity, but far more economic, religious, and cultural diversity. Her friends tend to be within a 5 mile radius, and as a result, she seems more free to gather on an informal basis, or run to the school for activities. (The private was a regional school, and anything social had to be planned well in advance to accommodate the distance). I have felt that the parents are actually more involved at the public school than the private. </p>

<p>Two things I regret from the switch: a) the art curriculum. The private had a great program, and we feel that although my daughter has the talent, she is not growing with it at the limited public program. We have tried to encourage her to participate in other opportunities, but she has little interest (or time), so we’ve backed off. b) the guidance. The public offers very little (if any) college or career guidance. It was not as important for my son who knew what he wanted. She is more lost (or open) at this point. Fortunately I turn to CC to fill the void!!! ;-)</p>

<p>Now, however, there has been a major change. Our public schools are funded by self-imposed taxes, and limited state funding. Recent tax levies were requested, and like many other communities, failed. The larger public schools have more cushion room. The smaller schools, operating on already tight budgets have to make major cuts. Good teachers are leaving or switching. Services are being slashed. It is not pretty.</p>

<p>Originally, the switch appeared a wise decision. Ultimately, the public school offered her more opportunities to try new things, even though the selection was smaller. By the end of this year, she was flourishing at the new school. Socially she seemed happy (as any teen). She has chosen several EC activities, and seems to both enjoy and grow from them. Academically, she was doing well (not super-star status, but fine). Depending on the cuts, we will need to wait and see if it were worth it in the end. She has one year remaining.</p>

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<p>Allmusic,
I agree with your comment about teaching to the lowest common denominator. In our schools, we see that until the middle school level and it really doesn’t go away until like you said they reach high school where honors, IB, and AP classes are available. And yes, the middle 50% just kinda go along on their own.</p>

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<p>EK, I have read your posts, and appreciate your experiences, definitely. </p>

<p>My experiences have been that kids at both extremes are better serviced in the public schools in my area, but again, those are only my own experiences. We have a lot of terrific possibilities for the kids at the top in our high school (not so at elementary, however), as well as at neighboring high schools with a similar socioeconomic profile. It is fortunate that many communities continue to fund the arts and activities for these bright and talented students, although some programs have certainly been cut.</p>

<p>Similarly, I have seen parents receive enormous service and program accommodation for their children with moderate to significant special needs. I think it is great that our schools are so accomodating, and of course, it is the law to level the playing field. </p>

<p>However, because these are state and federal mandates, the cities and towns must provide these services, by law, FIRST, along with mandates from NCLB, before funding regular education. So, the cuts, when budgets can’t be met, and tax levies are not passed, are not cuts to special education, but cuts to regular education, the segment that educates the most children…the middle 50%, to which I referred.</p>

<p>It’s a mandate and funding issue, as much as anything. The top kids can usually access challenging curriculum in many ways (including adding community college or other extra-curruicular experiences); the bottom kids won’t have their services affected by budget cuts. Kids in the middle…sometimes they are on their own, unless parents supplement for them as well…which is what I think is happening more and more.</p>

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<p>Allmusic, whether the ends of the educational spectrum are provided for depends a lot on where you live. Here in Washington, there are AP courses and a program called Running Start, in which 11th/12th students can go to the local community college. We considered that program for our son–but once we visited some classes it became apparent that having a bright 15-year-old on a campus mostly populated with returning students who had been unsuccessful in HS wouldn’t meet his needs. And he could have taken all the APs his HS offered and still been out of courses at 16. That may meet his course needs on paper, but sure didn’t meet his intellectual/social needs.</p>

<p>And special ed is way underfunded around here, esp. for students who have learning disabilities but “are performing at or near grade level”–which is considered just fine–even if they have the ability to do more.</p>

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<p>Our public schools are opening honors and AP courses to anyone (see Jay Matthews), in an attempt to achieve racial and social equity. These classes are not just for the upper 20% anymore. They may deny that these courses will be “dumbed down”, but I don’t buy it - how could they not be? They also do not require students to take the AP test at the end of the course. They have bought into the idea that just the exposure to these classes will help students achieve in college. If you have a kid who is really looking for academic challenge, you’re out of luck.</p>

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<p>I attended public school from K all the way through grade 10. I switched to a private HS prior to going into my junior year. There are pros and cons, of course. At my public school I was exposed to people from all walks of life, while people from my private school are almost all the same. I strongly believe that that academics were more challenging in private school then they were in my public school (although this was just my experience). I also believe that certain private schools are much better at preparing youth for college than public schools. I know that in my county out of every high school there were only two valedictorians going out of state, one from a public school going to ERAU and one from a private school going to a northern Ivy. </p>

<p>I guess it just depeneds on your area, and how good the public schools are.</p>

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<p>Hereshoping, I think you are probably right. How could the difficulty level of the classes not be affected? In our system, the APs and honors are not reserved for a certain percentile, but the student must have teacher and GC recs. Recently, more and more parents have raised a “stink” and gotten their kids put into these classes. According to teacher friends, this has made it very difficult for them–if they stay on track, these students sometimes receive very poor grades and then the parents are on the teacher’s back—the other option is to slow down the course, which isn’t fair to the rest of the students.</p>

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<p>Is there really much of a point to taking an AP class if you’re not going to sit for the exam in May?</p>

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<p>Sure, Dadguy. AP classes look swell on a transcript.</p>

<p>This is another case of PC gone wrong. Not every student is capable of handling AP classes. Why can’t we acknowledge that, instead of turning the class into pablum, so as no one will feel bad that they aren’t in AP?</p>