<p>You are wasting your time, and theirs. Give them the number, and nurse your outrage in private, if you like. The better course would be to give it up. If you apologize nicely to them for being so troublesome, there is a chance you will be able to enroll there and get by without constant hassles. But that’s up to you.</p>
<p>What proof do you have that the reasons they provided are actually lies? You are definately making a mountain out of a mole hill…and it is no wonder they have begun playing hardball with you. The harder you push them, the harder they push back. Remember, they don’t have to have you as a student…it was you who sought them out.</p>
<p>To topolover: If you feel so strongly that you don’t want to comply with this school’s reporting requirements and there’s no other local place to study, enroll in an online degree program and be happy. I agree with other posters that you’re making a huge deal out of nothing – especially considering that if you’ve ever signed a mortgage, a lease agreement, or an auto loan contract, with your name and approximate age a PI could obtain your social security number in about three minutes. So what are you accomplishing with your battle, other than making some poor administrative assistant’s day miserable and leaving the impression that observant Christians are unpleasant, difficult, fringe-y nutjobs? Many administrative assistants don’t really know /why/ they have to report your SSN, only that they do – and if you’re in their face about this, I’m not at all surprised if they come up with some placating rationalization to try and get you out of there and get on with their day. And if you show agitation while spouting stuff about the number of the beast in their offices, maybe that’s why they’re saying they want to make sure you’re not the next Timothy McVeigh.</p>
<p>I’m very protective of my SSN as well. I request an alternate id number whenever possible, I display my passport to prove citizenship, and I offer cash deposits in place of credit checks when signing up for utilities and other such services. But I’ve always handled it very politely and patiently, and I would never frame it as a religious argument or a lack of trust in the other party. This approach has worked for me over the past 20 years – since long before worrying about SSNs and identity theft was in vogue. In the beginning, people would look at me as if I’d just sprouted purple wings with green stripes, and I’d have to talk (calmly and patiently) with two levels of management before we reached an agreement. Now, the concern is prevalent enough that they usually know how to handle it right away and they don’t even raise an eyebrow. The exception, of course, is with organizations that can’t function without this information.</p>
<p>To the forum: I think this discussion about Title IV dovetails nicely with the older discussion about Grove City and Hillsdale electing not to accept federal funds. :-)</p>
<p>Good point Nikki. It’s ok for the college to lie. Is it a lie? Well, the law says…and I referred you and them directly to the specifics on the law…they must explain it. Is it true that a 17 year old kid can access a DHS database to tell if I’m another Timothy McVeigh? Is it true ANYONE at the college can access any kind of a database anywhere that says who is or isn’t a terrorist by using their SSN? </p>
<p>You say I’m making a mountain out of a molehill. Actually, since Title IV is not a law in itself that is not legal grounds to request the SSN. The problem it’s Title IV but that you nor the college I applied to is willing to explain that law. </p>
<p>Perhaps you can trust a school that lies to get personal identifying information. I won’t. If lying is ok to you, then I’m very glad I’m not applying to your college.</p>
<p>Did you bother reading the post above yours, topolover? As GM said, it’s possible the people you’re talking w/ don’t really know the reasons, just that they are supposed to get the information. Sure, it’s not good practice to make stuff up (I agree), but will you just get off your high horse and cooperate? You seem to just be making their days miserable for the “principle” of the thing, but from what you’ve said, I see no (respectable) “principle” behind it!</p>
<p>Give up your citizenship and transfer it to that of another country that doesn’t assign SSN’s</p>
<p>Actually, Title IV is covered by thousands of laws, all written by Congress. Obviously, you don’t have any real understanding of what governs college institutions. The lawbooks that cover college institutions can fill most offices.</p>
<p>And, as I said earlier…how do you know that what they claimed were their reasons, that they are lies? Do you know everything that colleges must do? Do you know who they report to? What laws they are governed by besides the one you keep quoting? Do you know what institutional bylaws they may have that might require background checks or other valid purposes for obtaining your social? All you have really stated is your opinion that they lied.</p>
<p>Reality is…you lied to them as well when you claimed that it was against your religion to provide your social. If you are willing to provide your social once they “assure” you that their need is justified, then it isn’t against your religion to provide a social or to have a social. As a Christian myself, there are many things I find in society that violate my religious beliefs…and I abstain from those COMPLETELY. I don’t bend just because someone “assures” me it is okay.</p>
<p>Now, I am not saying that your “beliefs” are invalid…you are entitled to any belief you wish, that is what makes America so great. However, if you are going to use that as your battle cry, be consistent. Then, maybe you will find people more willing to accept your beliefs at face value.</p>
<p>
I see. Actually that shows how little YOU know. Consider this: Google can be your friend-
[Title</a> IV - Google Search](<a href=“Title IV - Google Search”>Title IV - Google Search)</p>
<p>USA PATRIOT Act Title IV: Protecting the Border
[USA</a> PATRIOT Act, Title IV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act,_Title_IV]USA”>Title IV of the Patriot Act - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>Title IV of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) - Telecommunications services for hearing-impaired and speech-impaired individuals codified at 47 U.S.C. § 225.
[Title</a> IV of the ADA](<a href=“http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/dro/title4.html]Title”>http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/dro/title4.html)</p>
<p>Title IV—Grants to States For Aid and Services to Needy Families With Children and for Child-Welfare Services, Social Security Act
[Social</a> Security Act Title IV](<a href=“http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/ssact/title04/0400.htm]Social”>Social Security Act Title IV)</p>
<p>Elementary & Secondary Education, Title IV — 21st Century Schools
[Title</a> IV - 21st Century Schools](<a href=“http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/pg51.html]Title”>http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/pg51.html)</p>
<p>Go ask a law professor to explain this to you. And perhaps you’ll see what I am trying to get at. Federal laws are written by the Act, then Title, then Sub-Title, then Section. Case in point, the aforementioned Title IV—Grants to States For Aid and Services to Needy Families With Children and for Child-Welfare Services, Social Security Act. Using that as an example it breaks down as shown if you go to the table of contents @ [Social</a> Security Act Table of Contents](<a href=“http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/ssact/ssact-toc.htm]Social”>Social Security Act Table of Contents).</p>
<p>
Well, discussing it with the US Dept. of Education was an eye opener. And then FAFSA. And the US Dept. of Justice Civil Rights/Educational Opportunities section. Then the Colorado Dept. of Revenue, and finally the county clerk. HOW the school is going to verify the stuff they claimed is beyond me. And the US Dept. of Homeland Security as well as the FBI would be ecstatic to have such a finely tuned database where you can use someone’s Social, PROVE they are who they say they are, and then PROVE they are terrorist. Now if only you could convince the real terrorists in the Middle East to get American SSN, that would make it all the better.
The fact is, if I give my Social to the young lady, she’s going to put it in the computer. Wow. NOW she will tell me that I’m approved or that my check cleared. That I’m not a terrorist. Nikki, I know this will happen because it HAS happened before. The fact is, when she does that, since there is no such database, she’s lying intentionally. THAT isa felony. But that’s ok, since she works for a college she can apparently commit a felony and nothing happens. Is there something magical about a college having such authority? That somehow they won’t abuse the system? Problem is Nikki, they already are when they lie to get it. IF they truly have a lawfully need for it, why lie? I mean, how simple can it possibly get from there? After all, if they have a lawful need for it, there’s nothing to hide. right?</p>
<p>
Nope. How hard is it for them to educate me on this? Not hard that I can see. After all, that is why the school hires their own lawyers. If the school is too busy to tell me the truth about why they need my Social and what they are using it for then they clearly do not have time for ANY students. </p>
<p>
Institutional by-laws do not afford the school any immunity from obeying federal laws. Period. Does not happen. My opinion about their lies really isn’t an opinion as much as it is fact. How about I PM you, send you my Social, and then you get me a printout showing EVERY background check you said colleges do? Not your choice if you do or don’t provide such information to me, now that falls under the Fair Credit Reporting Act. </p>
<p>
How so? They used the Book of Romans to try to excuse their request for my Social claiming they have authority over me. Perhaps they have authority over me as a student, but then the Privacy Act has authority over them. So as soon as they respect the authority of the Privacy Act, I’ll respect their authority to have my Social. If they cannot honor the authority over them then they have no authority over me. </p>
<p>
It’s not about “assuring” anything. If they cannot honor a federal law that governs their request then I do not have to honor their request. And yes the law DOES say that. Please see Pub. Law 93-579 Section 7a. Unlike you and unlike the school, I’ll refer you guys to the laws I’m talking about. All I hear anyone say is Patriot Act, which is BS; then without naming any of the anti-terrorism laws, and then you and a few times themselves referring to “Title IV”. And I already showed you the Google results for Title IV. </p>
<p>There were addition Title IV references on Google, but those were Financial Aid codes, and since I was not at that time applying for financial aid, they definetly have no business having access to my personal identifying information. Applying for me for financial aid without my consent IS identity theft. If I pay out of my pocket, they don’t need it. What is so hard to understand about that? And it has nothing to do with equality, because if a non-government third party they were to access my records without my consent is in violation of FERPA. And if not FERPA, there are other federal laws that assure me of financial privacy. You will now start telling me about how XYZ agency needs to see my records for this reason, of ABC agency needs it for that reason. That is allowed under FERPA, and they are not a non-government third party. A non-government third party would be Wells Fargo Bank checking to see if I need financial aid, even though I’m not applying for it.</p>
<p>
Battle cry? As I keep saying, if they want it then they can comply with the law. If they refuse to comply with the law using scripture, then it won’t happen. They said the scripture, out of the Book of Romans (Chapter 13) gives them the authority to ask for it and over me. </p>
<p>The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in “Plyler v. Doe”, (457 U.S.202 (1982)) that requiring SSNs from students was discriminatory. The ruling must be enforced “equally,” which means that the prohibition against universities requiring social security numbers from students applies to all students. Most universities still expect students to have and to use an SSN. Some schools will even try to coax new students into filling out an SSN application form, but most schools and universities will accommodate an alternative proposal. And none may deny admittance based on the lack of an SSN.</p>
<p>And now somehow a simple community college is above the law? I bet there’s a bunch of four year colleges that would love to learn how!</p>
<p>I know I would!</p>
<p>“I know I would”</p>
<p>Providing your SSN is against your religion, but you would like to be above the law?</p>
<p>
If you keep up this approach, they will do everything they can to avoid admitting you. Even if your motivation is principled, to them you are simply being a pest. Again, what you should do is apologize for causing so much inconvenience, and give them the number.</p>
<p>Topolover…your posting really shows how little you know.</p>
<p>Title IV is the Federal regulations for Colleges and Universities that receive Federal (Title IV funding). This happens to be one of my areas of expertise…as I am a Financial Aid Administrator and mandated to understand Title IV regulations. I don’t have to google it, I
live it each and every day, something I have never hidden from anyone on this board. None of the links you posted even deal with Federal funding for college.</p>
<p>And, another sign is that you state “discussing it with the US Dept. of Education was an eye opener. And then FAFSA”. Guess what…the US Dept of Education and FAFSA are the EXACT SAME THING. The US Dept of Education RUNS FAFSA (which is only the Free Application for Federal Student Aid or Title IV funding).</p>
<p>If the school you are applying to received Title IV funding, then the Title IV Federal Codes (Financial Aid regulations most commonly referred to as the Higher Education Act) apply to EVERY student at the institution, or applying for the institution, even if the student does not plan on using Financial Aid. Institutions are not allowed to set different school regulations based on whether a student apply’s for financial aid or pays 100% cash out of pocket.</p>
<p>Also, Colleges and Universities are required to report attendance to the federal database for ALL students…to do so requires the students social. This law, too, falls under the expansive Title IV Federal Financial Aid Regulations.</p>
<p>Again…like it or not, applying for the funding or not, the Title IV Federal Financial Aid Regulations still apply to you. Quite honestly, the Title IV regulations cover much much more than just financial aid. It covers campus security, academics, debt management (for ALL students), college costs, school accreditation, peer counseling, fire safety, missing persons, protection of student speech, Teacher professional development, international education, diversity…just to name a few. All of these things, which have absolutely nothing to do with Financial Aid still fall under the Financial Aid umbrella. </p>
<p>And Plyler v. Doe refers to FREE education…no where does it state that Colleges and Universities cannot refuse to admit a student who either cannot or will not supply a social security number. In fact, the whole paper is about public school education (k-12)…and yes, I took the time to read the WHOLE document.</p>
<p>Again…you state it is a religious thing…but would be willing to provide the number should they provide you with a “valid” reason…then it isn’t by religious principle that you make your stand. Instead it is by twisting the law and their reasoning, for what appears to be mere stubbornness.</p>
<p>If you want to keep up this battle, count yourself as not getting into that institution. Kick and scream as loud as you want, but no one is going to take notice…no one is going to make them admit you without the social. Find another cause worth fighting…like the removal of Christianity from every day life…then maybe someone will take notice and come to your aid.</p>
<p>Why is your SSN “the mark of the beast?” </p>
<p>“the mark of the beast” is spposed to be assigned to everyone. Yet the SSN is only assigned to Americsans. There are roughly 6.5 billion people who are not American.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the fact that you were able to get into some colleges without your SSN, plus the fact that you’ve been buying food and paying rent without your SSN, Is proof that your SSN is not the mark of the beast.</p>
<p>If the mark of the beast is even real, no one would be able to defy using it. If they could, it’s not the mark of the beast. </p>
<p>Lastly, what is sinful about having a SSN or giving it out? Does it go against God’s will? does it cause evil at all?</p>
<p>Apparently, it is because section 666 of United States Code deals with SSN’s.</p>
<p>If it was named section 665, a SSN would not be the mark of the beast.</p>
<p>But most scholars believe 666 refers to the Roman emperor Nero (whose name, written in Aramaic, was valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria, a manner of speaking against the emperor without the Roman authorities knowing).</p>
<p>or Emperor Caligula.</p>
<p>Nikki do you have a link for this infamous Title IV you speak so highly of?</p>
<p>I guess it’s all ok that colleges can lie to get one’s Social. You never covered that part, Nikki. Like I said, if it’s lawful then they don’t have to lie. </p>
<p>You’re right. I won’t go to college. Not if the only way a school can “obey” the law is by lying.</p>
<p>There are many find Christian counselors who might help … is it any wonder the worldly world looks @ us as whack-O! :eek:</p>
<p>Hate to break it to you guys but… </p>
<p>REVELATIONS WAS A LIE</p>
<p>A whole lotta folks hoping you’re right. They missed Pascal’s message …</p>
<p>
Dude, the school is not trying to trick or deceive you, it is trying to get rid of you because you are being a huge annoyance. Either suck it up and give them the number or forget the whole thing. If you really want to demonstrate Christian virtue to them, you should apologize for the trouble you’ve caused.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That may be a wise decision. Bricklayers, plumbers, and other orthodox tentmakers have been known to make fine livings.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Here is the original law as amended through October 2002: <a href=“http://republicans.edlabor.house.gov/archive/publications/heacomp/hea65002.pdf[/url]”>http://republicans.edlabor.house.gov/archive/publications/heacomp/hea65002.pdf</a></p>
<p>It isn’t current, as Congress and DOE are still in negotated rulemaking for the reauthorization of the HEA, and many regulations are in the process of being changed.</p>
<p>You’ll also want to read through the numerous “Dear Colleague” letters published by DOE, as they detail amendments to the regulations and provide clarifications on what the actual law was intended to mean. They can be found here: [Federal</a> Student Aid - IFAP: iLibrary - Dear Colleague Letters](<a href=“http://www.ifap.ed.gov/ifap/byYear.jsp?type=dpcletters]Federal”>http://www.ifap.ed.gov/ifap/byYear.jsp?type=dpcletters)</p>
<p>That you get you started on understanding…if you are really interested.</p>
<p>And I am not overlooking the accusation of a lie…I am just cancelling out their lie by your lie. You said earlier that they provided you with two letters of reasoning…after you protested the first one, which probably contained more truths than you will admit…they came up with something else they hoped would either get them the necessary information or get you out the door. Again…you chose them…they didn’t seek after you. If you want to attend their institution, you need to play by their rules and provide them with the information. Otherwise, start looking elsewhere, somewhere that doesn’t receive Title IV funding.</p>