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<p>Please go back and read the original article or the third post of this thread. ;)</p>
<p>Ariesathena, as you are claiming to be making no attacks on the opinions or beliefs of others, your posts are doing just that.</p>
<p>I don’t have any problems with people’s individual beliefs or choices. Go ahead and think whatever you want. But don’t make policy or public decisions based on reigious view. Period.</p>
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<p>The question has little to do with whether you can think whatever you want–of course you can–but rather, having had the thought can you publicly express it given the restrictive speech-codes on university campuses–and if not there, where would be a liberal enough environment to express a philosophical/ethical/classical beliefeven if a minority belief fallen into popular disfavor and disapprobation. </p>
<p>Censuring campus speech seems, on the face of it, a bad idea…to all except the “New Clergy.”</p>
<p>Allmusic,</p>
<p>What should public policy decisions that deal with moral issues be based upon?</p>
<p>Every day in America, gay people are beaten, abused, and reviled. Every day. The depth of anti-gay prejudice is hard to overstate. The line between anti-gay speech and incitement to violence is one that needs to be carefully monitored.</p>
<p>In terms of being reviled, on college campuses conservative Republicans are reviled, not only by students but also frequently by faculty members. College administrators apparently have no problem with this. Furthermore, throughout the world many, many Christians are beaten, abused, and killed, simply because they are Christians.</p>
<p>I have not read about any Christian groups who are suggesting beating or abusing anyone, gay or otherwise. Christian groups and individual Christians are not asking for the right to beat or abuse anyone. They are only asking for the right to hold and publicly discuss their views.</p>
<p>Being obnoxious is ordinarily not against the law. For example, it would probably be difficult for a college to set up rules that you are not allowed to go up to someone and tell them that they are fat. It would, however, be extremely rude for someone to do so. </p>
<p>Is it possible to HARASS a person who is fat. Repeatedly following someone around and yelling at them, Fat! Fat! Fat! would certainly cross the line. Such behavior should not be tolerated. However, a college group that was composed of those who are thin or striving to be thin could form and not bother me a bit. I would not consider someone giving a talk on why being thin is better than being fat, or even that being fat is unhealthy, to be HARASSMENT of fat people. </p>
<p>From the original post, the girl from Georgia Tech seems to have crossed the line in terms of going out of her way to bother people. She is certainly obnoxious. However, there are also plenty of obnoxious gays. Friends of mine were married and exited the church to a street where a gay pride parade was taking place. When the people in the parade saw the new husband in his tux and the wife in her wedding dress, they began screaming obscenities at them and throwing things at them, completely unprovoked. This is certainly harassment.</p>
<p>Christians are only asking to be judged according to the same standards as any other campus group. Christians should have the free speech right to discuss the pros and cons of extra-marital heterosexual and homosexual sex. If any individual Christians cross the line and repeatedly scream at, or verbally abuse, or threaten, or beat anyone else, then that should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. But discussion that prostitution or homosexuality is immoral is NOT harassment of prostitutes or homosexuals.</p>
<p>I guess I am wondering about churches which advocate that members harrass, badger or intimidate co-workers, family members or neighbors about their “lifestyle”.
This hits very close to home for me- my mother had a psychotic break when my sister and her husband who are very religious stayed with her while their house was being built. When she finally reached the breaking point and lost touch with reality- they said she was “battling with the devil”. She didn’t get help until her carpool ride took her to work and they had to call 911.( where she was hospitalized for several months)</p>
<p>If these churches are not advocating that members harrass “non-believers” or those who simply choose another way to believe, then why are they doing so?</p>
<p>How’s this for “tolerance” of Christians:
</p>
<p>This was an elected official from San Francisco speaking of Christians who had the audacity of demonstrating in San Francisco. He was there to support the gay protestors who were calling the Christians “fascists”. So what was that about Christian’s not being reviled?</p>
<p>I don’t disgree that there are rude- and inappropriate people no matter their belief system
What my question was- why are churches advocating that members challenge others beliefs by harassment ?</p>
<p>All it takes is to listen or watch the complete whackjob Fred Phelps…just witness the indoctrination of his “church”', including small children carrying signs with horrific, hateful, bigoted messages.</p>
<p>Yes, it is their right, under the laws of free speech and assembly, but doesn’t make it any less offensive.</p>
<p>And to the poster who asked how we legislate moral issues, I think we tread carefully. If Christians are opposed to gay marriage or abortion, by all means don’t go that route. Even be Fred Phelpsie about it, if you like. But don’t dictate and make law based upon your personal religious beliefs…since they may not be mine.</p>
<p>My post was directed toward kluge who implied that gays were always the one on the receiving side of the harassment - this example shows that they can dish it out as well - with the approval and instigation of elected officials. </p>
<p>As to your situation, if, indeed the church was behind the harassment, it falls way out the mainstream of any church that I am familiar with. As you say, “there are rude- and inappropriate people no matter their belief system” and this applies to some churches as well. Just look at the kooks (in Kansas I believe) that call themselves a “church” that take harassment of gays to the extreme. To ascribe this behavior to all churches or all Christians is no more logical than it is to point to certain crimes committed by gays and ascribe that behaviour to the entire gay community.</p>
<p>I cross-posted with allmusic and she refers to the group that I was referring to. But, she also seems to fall into the same trap of trying to connect this fringe group with churches in general.</p>
<p>No, fundingfather. I actually don’t believe that the Westboro Church is associated with mainstream Christian belief at all. </p>
<p>However, there are rigid fundamentalist Christian beliefs, that while not as publicly horrific as Fred Phelps, are still exceptionally bigoted, closeminded, etc. They are just more appropriate about the delivery of their message, even though it overlaps with the Westboro Church.</p>
<p>It’s your regular Christian, just like your regular mainstream Conservative, who gets associated with all the nutjobs. This really can’t be helped, since those people are very vocal.</p>
<p>EK, sorry about your experience. I don’t know who Fred Phelps is, but there are ignorant people in every faith/religion, and I don’t think the majority of Christians are harrassing people (although some who claim to be Christians do). If they do, it is foolish and they are wrong. A true Christian loves his neighbor as himself and follows the Golden Rule (“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you).” Christians are to spread the Good News (of the gospel of peace), not to force their views on anyone.</p>
<p>fred phelps is the nutcase whose congregation picketed Mathew Shepards funeral.
<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev._Fred_Phelps[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev._Fred_Phelps</a></p>
<p>I don’t have a problem with people who choose to follow a different religion than I. I might be irritated by people coming door to door or on street corners handing out tracts , but that I believe falls under free speech. What I would have a problem with, is a student like in the OP, who takes it as her mission to berate people.</p>
<p>The Christians that I know, let their acts speak louder than words- and use their energy to do good works, rather than go where they are not wanted</p>
<p>Leanid asked quite a few pages back:
“What clear benefit do homosexuals (as a GROUP) offer to civilization?”</p>
<p>and it took me a while to figure out why this bothered me so much. It was the idea that they had to contribute to society to be deemed worthy. We don’t expect the physically ill or the severely learning disabled or newborn babies to contribute to society, and yet we care for them, we don’t try to change what they are or expect them to behave differently (“just don’t act like you have diabetes and it will go away”). People are what they are. There is no evidence that being gay is a choice and who are we to deny them the chance to find love (emotional and physical) between consenting adults?</p>
<p>pafather and fundingfather,</p>
<p>That Christians is being reveiled is really really trivial compared to what many gays/lesbians have to endure in their entire life. Let me ask you; do you feel you have to hide your religious relief out of shame and fear? Do you feel afraid of telling people you went to Church last Sunday? Did you grow up (or live your entire life) constantly feeling “dirty” and guilty about yourself because of who you were/are? Do you hate yourself because of how the society perceives about your sexual orientation? The ones you saw on the parade are likely the ones that have accepted themselves; they are not afraid and they may even be obnoxious (like screaming obscenities at your friends though I wouldn’t call that “completely unprovoked” though). But there are many many that still struggle, “live in the closet”, and have no one to confide with because they are too afraid to tell anyone. Studies show that 5% of the population are gays/lesbians (more if you include the bisexuals). I’d bet the % of gays in your church/workplace that you “know of” is much less. Why? Because they are hiding and present themsleves as straight to you. Studies also show that gay teens have a much higher rate of commiting suicide than their straight counterparts because of poor mental health due to discrimination. What many Christians are doing (though that may not necessarily their intentions though some do appear to act maliciously) is simply reinforcing their negative feelings about themselves and keeping their self-esteem low. I personally don’t think a person can live a full and happy life without accepting and loving himself/herself first.</p>
<p>Now back to the discussion of the topic:
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<p>pafather,</p>
<p>Like I said, the policy seems to be based on whether the policy makers think homosexuality is a behavior/lifestyle by choice or an inborn trait equivalent to race and gender. Though not explicityly stated, my bet is GA Tech is treating gays/lesbians as one of the minority/ethnic groups. Whether you agree or disagree is another issue. But that’s how they see it. That view is in agreement with scientific findings and shared by all major psychological associations. That’s why the Christians sueing for their right in the article denied it as inborn trait and kept emphasizing it as “lifestyle” even though according to you, the real Christian view is that it’s not okay regardless because sin is inborn trait and not okay. Had those Christians conceded that it’s an inborn trait, their chance for any change would be much slimmer and they are well-aware of it.</p>
<p>BoBBobbob- said: should those discussions be tolerated as well? should I be able at a public university to say that all Jews or hispanics are immoral if I believed that?</p>
<p>YES YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY THAT- Even if I think you are a nut or find your agenda to be repulsive! To suppress free speech is to control what is heard,seen and spoken. Isn’t that what Hitler did with his Hitler youth? Well my son is at college now and he calls many of his peers on campus “Lib Youth”- he claims they are being brainwashed to the “PC way of life” and never have a chance to hear the opposing view. Yet he in inundated with the “Liberal or PC View” everyday! Imagine, if all you heard was the pro-life agenda or some religious agenda.</p>
<p>I think I already found the homosexual agenda
but what is the “liberal” agenda?</p>
<p>DMD77 said: There is no evidence that being gay is a choice and who are we to deny them the chance to find love (emotional and physical) between consenting adults?</p>
<p>Ok I have ask this question of anyone who supports gay marriage and never get an answer- they just say that is silly- marriage is between two people whether same sex or not- here is the question: </p>
<p>Who are we to deny two bi- sexual (women ) the right to marry a third member ,a male (or vice versa)? That way they can have a chance to find love (emotional and physical) between consenting adults.</p>
<p>dmd,</p>
<p>First, newborn babies do contribute to society – they reawaken in us our innocence, our sense of responsibility and order, our nurturing side and our hope for the world in a most charming way – a very necessary contribution indeed! Try living in this world without them! </p>
<p>Second, your reasoning tells me that you view homosexuality as analagous to the diseased and helpless. Is that what it is in ESSENCE?</p>
<p>Third, sex is not love and love is not sex. Love is the ultimate and highest connection to another human being. It transcends physicality. Just look at happy couples whom you can find anywhere. They come in all shapes, colors and sizes. Are they always physically attractive? No, but they do have love between them, which trumps the physical!
Sex is essentially a PHYSICAL thing. To me, homosexuality appears to be stuck in the physical – because it does involve physical intercourse between two persons whose genitalia are meant to interact with opposite genitalia, which goes against NATURE. </p>
<p>If by some happy circumstance a homosexual couple were to discover that actual LOVE was their true feeling for eachother, I would say “Great!” — only sorry they did not find it before resorting to that most absurd and unnatural form of physical contact that homosexuality is.</p>
<p>Sex is essentially a PHYSICAL thing
mediocre or bad sex is purely physical- but if you have ever had good sex, you would know that it goes far beyond ;)</p>