I have also heard from one such student, that it does not feel the same as
Being a Juilliard student, and feels as though there is less access to ensembles. Even Juilliard students find it extremely stressful to be at Juilliard let alone adding a Columbia course load . I think music is amazing, but if you are equally or more happy doing something else as a career you probably should.
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My son was in the Columbia-Juilliard jazz program and he felt like he had the best of both worlds. He was fully integrated into lessons and ensembles at Juilliard, but he had his social and academic community back at Columbia too. There werenât a lot of kids in that program, but my sense, at least on the jazz side, was that they were pretty clear about putting their commitment to the music first. They wanted the academic experience of Columbia, but music was their passion and their first priority and theyâre pursuing music as their careers several years out. And yes, they probably could be making more money doing something else with their Columbia degrees, but they wouldnât be nearly as happy.
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DD also heard this from some professors - i think Harvard/NEC was a particular one that she was told the drop out rate was very high
I wonder what the professors think of these candidates, knowing that those who pursue double/joint degrees are highly likely to drop out. For those young musicians music has become part of their lives. I donot think if orchestras in the universities (similar to the orchestras in high schools) will fulfill their needs. They are like in between professional musicians and armatures.
I donât have much insight except a few professors advised D24 that they wouldnât support a duel degree and she therefore didnât audition; I imagine it might be professor and studio specific and depend on size of school etc
I know kids who decided not to do the dual degree Harvard/NEC at the outset and did a music concentration at Harvard only. A few of them went on to a doctorate (actually one didnât even major in music), so opting out of dual degree may not mean giving up on music. It is possible to continue music with lessons and extracurricular performance, and a rigorous music major in a BA program.
Young people can get the breadth of education of a BA then do grad work in music. Or they can do a BM and then do grad work in something else. I know someone who did vocal performance as undergrad and then doctorate in medieval studies, and another BM in trombone who got a job in educational tv.
I also know musicians who did music for years, through a doctorate or through a substantial career, who then switch to a profession with another degree, like law, or social work.
Then, there are those who are still performing or composing and making it work. Not always easy but very fulfilling. For some, it really isnât even a choice: they have to do it!
Life is flexible. All in all, Doing what you love,. whether for a BM, BA or dual degree, for the 4 undergrad years, is worthwhile regardless of outcome.
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Itâs quite a leap from your anecdotal evidence to making the assertion that âthose who pursue double/joint degrees are highly likely to drop outâ of the music program. Itâs been a while since my son was in the Columbia-Juilliard program, but no one in the joint program on the jazz side dropped out from the Juilliard program. And I donât think many, if any, on the classical side dropped out from the Juilliard program either. The kids in the joint program used to do twice a year recitals at Columbia and I saw the same kids on the classical side year after year until they graduated. My sonâs teachers (both his piano teacher and his ensemble instructors) at Juilliard could not have been more supportive of him. Including after he graduated. (Btw, his teachers at Columbia were also very supportive and understanding when he had a music conflict.)
I have heard that at some schools there are some teachers who are not supportive of dual degree students, so thatâs definitely something to research in choosing a school and a teacher. And, of course, dual degree programs are not for everyone. Certainly my sonâs life in college would have been easier (though I think less fulfilling) if he had gone the straight music route. But for the right student, with supportive teachers, it can work out very well.
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Even if my daughter does not pursue music as a career, I still think 4 years immersed in it would be time well spent. Hopefully she is networking and making connections so that the arts are always a robust part of her life. She is also considering planning second major or minor in another subject to âhedge her betsâ.
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If a prof at a school was giving antecdotal evidence on their own studio and maybe adjacent studios, that is probably at least reliable for that school and situation. That is the beauty of being able to have some direct conversations with possible teachers. I had a kid that applied dual degree and a kid that applied straight music and I felt like the processes were really different. Given the stats on changing majors, this actually doesnât seem surprising to me at all. Our double degree kid visited more schools early than most and had multiple teachers in several sample lessons be very ambivilent at best on double degree students in dedicated music programs. Including one who directly said âI donât take double degree students in my studioâ. From a school that has double degree as an option all over their marketing material and website. This may be different in harder to fill studios. And you may get a different answer from a different teacher in the same program. My kid was auditioning vocal. Vocal students are a dime a dozen for undergrad and some auditioning are newer music students. Iâve heard some similar stories from students applying out of our metro over the past 5-6 years.
I will say my oldest did recently complete both degrees. In STEM and in music. And he has been working a STEM related job for a few months and is making more money than I would have thought possible for a 22 year old. But that said, he has music community where he is settled for now. He is doing music related stuff every weekend. Writing, producing, performing, etc etc etc. Is a kid in a great position and has interest in grad school. Weâll see where life goes in a few years. I think sticking with the music was great for him socially and mentally through covid college.
He really got through the music program thanks to a very supportive and flexible music teacher. So thatâs my recommendation for anyone seriously considering that path. Because if you are in a program that has very strict required demands of all your time and a teacher less supportive of that 2nd degree and interest, itâs a harder balance. Where my kid ended up, he had great options but more flexibility to pick and chose where he wanted to spend his time. It also may be totally possible Jazz programs and teachers are more intrisically flexible. That wouldnât surprise me at all.
Ironically, my âstraight musicâ freshman just added a dual degree. Something about best laid plans ⊠
I think this will all be ok for her. It will likely work because she was able to bring in a lot of credits.
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Agree about it being quite a leap. S22 is at Oberlin, where the school makes a big effort to support dual degree students. I would venture to say that the rate of drop out or switching majors is no more or less than the rate of drop out or switching of any other major.
S22 went in to the Conservatory only and has decided to pick up a minor in English lit just because heâs interested in literature, has room in his schedule (especially starting 3rd year when the bulk of the core music requirements are completed) and wanted a little diversion from music all day and night.
Obviously all we have is anecdotal information, and music schools vary greatly in their approach to students who have divergent interests, but S doesnât know any dual degree students who have dropped music for their other degree. That doesnât mean they will pursue music as a career, it just means they have remained dedicated and interested in both of their areas of study.
I also think it depends on what instrument you play. Violin they expect 4-5 hours of practice a day(with the amount of repertoire they need to learn) - with a heavy academic load that would be really challenging. With brass, you can get away with 2-3 hours a day probably more doable. Voice would be doable also. Jazz programs would work. Some people juggle better than others also. My daughter wanted to be a violinist early on and has great grades but only took three AP classes in high school - the rest honors. It would not work for her.
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I went to Manhattan School of Music undergrad and then Columbia University Teachers College for grad school - a great program. My career is teaching and playing . There are lots of different ways to do this. I can see my daughter doing something similar and also maybe cosmetology school between undergrad and grad school. She is very creative and she would be able to freelance and do that also and have a great life. She just needs to be self supporting when she is done! - whether that is a full time orchestra, or freelancing and teaching or another side hustle.
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Oh for sure. I think this can vary widely by program too. Just from a vocal perspective for undergrad, expectations can be all over the place depending on program. A program might really be leaning into their UG to be in multiple choirs/ensembles, opera, expect some UGs to be doing competitions, etc. Some might just expect you to participate in a single choir and after that is up to you. My dual degree kid primary music outlet on campus was completely non-traditional for a vocal student. He also plays a couple instruments, composes, arranges, etc.
We didnât even get a consistent answer from multiple people in the same department on this some places in terms of how they handle or support double degree. Just good things to ask when considering that path.
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My kid just got an acceptance for DePaul Jazz double bass!! SO excited!
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I have heard anecdotally that while the schools are supportive of double-degree students that the individual studios often are not as they prefer students who are fully on the music side. The exception would be a places like Bard, where all music students are required to be double-degree. It seems to be less about the schools and more about the attitude of the individual professors towards double-degree students.
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I almost forgot: Itâs March MadnessâŠfor the music audition process!!! That means a couple of thingsâŠeach year:
1.) A LOT of worry about numbers! What do they mean!! And this includes financials. Itâs all very concerning. So donât go near the numbers early or theyâll make you âmadâ.
2.) Stories, stories, storiesâŠrelated to dropping out, being unhappy, ending up at the âwrongâ school. Remember that these are 18 year olds entering music school (with all kinds of dreams and aspirations) that sometimes donât pan out. Thereâs a lot of moving in Freshman yearâŠand thatâs not just double degree students. There will be VERY committed 18 year olds going into a BMâŠthat realize music isnât as fun as they thoughtâŠas their roommate is doing a super cool degreeâŠand yepâŠthey drop music.
Do teachers know that their studio will change? Of course! Itâs part of the calculation. I wouldnât try to read too much into it all (and yâall got some good, serious responses already). You need to be who you are (double degree or not) to get with the right school and right teacher. It has a way of working outâŠregardless the stories.
Enjoy March. Youâll be moving into April Angst soonâŠ
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For those that have experience, how were you notified of your childâs talent scholarship money? Is it similar to the acceptance letters? Email? Portal? Is it part of the schoolâs overall financial aid offer letter, or does it come separately?
The ones my kids have received are usually emails saying there has been an update to their admissions status and to check their portals. My youngest actually got one today from Butler.
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Acceptance letter to Jacobs, then the IU acceptance cameâŠ.but it says pre-Music University Division? Huh? Is this normal and will get sorted out or should we call admissions?
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First rejection tonight from Jacobs. 
It wasnât at the top of list (I donât think), but S was definitely impressed after visiting and we had such a great time in Bloomington. Oh well, he already has some great options and is patiently waiting for the rest.
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