College Admissions - Chinese Style

Parents Forum
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<p>I think what oldfort is talking about is that your experience is not necessarily typical, nor does ‘normal high school math’ in the U.S.A. necessarily prepare a student adequately for standardized testing, because the textbook content, the manner of teaching, the competency of that teacher, and even the course curriculum designated, is not standardized. It is so not standardized that one of my colleagues in education went on to get a higher degree so that he could come back to my State and be a policy wonk for the absolutely horrid teaching of math, K-12. In one of my eighth grade math classrooms (a suburban, not a poor urban school), the nevertheless competent teacher was given an 11th grade text to try to teach students who didn’t have their math facts down yet and couldn’t do factoring for algebra. </p>

<p>In situations like those, and further on the high school level, public school teachers often have to spend inordinate amounts of time re-teaching earlier math, which means not all the current course material is covered.</p>

<p>Secondly, there’s been the faddish Integrated Math trend that has developed for the high school level. First of all, that’s fine if the students are all up to speed on the various strands, going into the course – but usually they’re not (due to highly non-standardized previous teaching and testing). In addition, there are some math fields that do need to be taught specifically. You can’t integrate geometry until you’re taught the principles and proof-method. Very often teachers who are good at anything but geometry are placed in these positions, and then the geometry reasoning is not adequately taught for any standardized test.</p>

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<p>The underlining arguement seems to be: US is the best country in the world. Therefore whatever system here must be the best. Since China is a third world country, therefore their system must be infieror to that of US.</p>

<p>Wait for another 20 years.</p>

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<p>We seem to have a bit of confusion between the SAT Subject Math II being hard and the possibility of earning a high score! Does the fact that the test offers a very generous curve not indicate that the test is also … quite difficult? Unless it has changed in recent years, one could score a perfect 800 despite omitting 5 to 7 questions, or missing 4 to 6. </p>

<p>The reality is that the test is reasonably easy for students who are very well prepared and possess a superior command of a graphic calculator. For the average HS student in the US, the test is very challenging. Hence, the relatively large number of high scorers who benefit from the generous curve. Fwiw, were the SAT Subject Math II given to all SAT Reasoning Test takers, the average score would be abysmal.</p>

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<p>@ Dad II, Yes, China is way too backward and chinese are still living in the dark ages. This point was clearly demostrated by the following facts:

  1. China has the fastest (350km/hr) high speed rail system in the world
  2. The fastest computer, untill recent week, supassed by one in Japan.
  3. China has the largest manufacturing base in the world.</p>
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<p>^ You are wrong. Asian Americans are three root of the problem because they are materialistic, going after the money, and because they don’t have creativity and leadership.</p>

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<p>Where on CC have you found that to be said or inferred? (Hint: You won’t find it, because those who do understand our system of admissions have never made such a statement, and never would.) It works, so far, for a handful of private, highly desired (notice I didn’t equate desired with “best” ;)) United States colleges whose priority is domestic students. And it “works,” insofar as it does (imperfectly, clumsily at times), because it conforms to the U.S. culture, not the Chinese culture. Hmmm. Wait: That sounds too logical.</p>

<p>Who is suggesting that the U.S. export a U.S. system, complete with its cultural expectations of this culture, to an overseas educational system? (That’s right: again, it’s not there.) Just another straw man; just another accusation of “racism.” Got it. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>This is spot-on accurate, as anyone currently working in education and interfacing with high school students and their current classes & recent performance, is well aware.</p>

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<p>@ coolweather, tell that to Jerry Yang(Yahoo), An Wang(Wang Computer).</p>

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<p>With those systems, at least you know anyone around you is smart.</p>

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<p>@eiphany, Exporting a proven good system is nothing to be ashamed of. The best Chinese Universities can trace their roots to US systems. For example: Qinghua and Peking U can trace their origins from US universities.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say anyone would/should be “ashamed.” I said that it would be presumptuous for anyone on either side of the Pacific or Atlantic to assume that what works in one country will, or “should,” work in another. Our culture actually puts something of a premium value on nonconformity. I do not expect other cultures to share that value. But neither should any other culture expect that the U.S. should share their hierarchy of values, regardless of how they believe those non-U.S. values have resulted in certain advancements, etc. U.S. colleges don’t answer to other to other cultural values, but to our own.</p>

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<p>^ HAHAHHAAHAHAHAH the US is pretty conformist</p>

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<p>^ relative to whom?</p>

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<p>"
With those systems, at least you know anyone around you is smart.
"</p>

<p>Why, are you concerned about dummies at elite schools? If you’re so concerned, I’m sure you wouldn’t want to apply.</p>

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<p>Relative to no one. For a country that has pride in being different, it’s citizens don’t like you if your different.(Most, not all)</p>

<p>^ I’m not concerned about it</p>

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<p>Yeah, what an objectively verifiable statement about one of the more tolerant (overall) countries on the planet, with a high quotient of diversity and immigration. Yeah right, we’re just so freakin’ condemnatory of un-sameness. </p>

<p>Hey, no one’s forced to stay here. Never mind those absurdly long legal immigration lines, those 2.5 year waits in immigration court, those 18 applications to highly-ranked American universities. Despite the U.S. being supposedly hopelessly intolerant and “racist,” the world seems to have turned into masochists and decided it deserves the supposedly horrible treatment and worse “elite” education, populated, as PG says, with “dummies.”</p>

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<p>^ Just because it looks diversity on the surface, doesn’t mean it is. Anyways, after a generation or two, the US will be as tolerant as it should be, with the younger generation being more open-minded and accepting.</p>

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<p>There’s a simplistic argument being made here that somehow economic success is tied to the type of (elite) university entrance requirements. The argument seems to be something like this: </p>

<p>In the US, elite university entrance requirements involve measurements that are not associated with their educational mission: ECs, URM status, legacy status, geography, etc. In addition, one of the measurements of educational success–such as the SAT–is not weighed enough in terms of entrance requirements and is an exceptionally easy test; therefore, students are not pushed enough. Thus, elite universities do not attract the best students and students are ‘behind’. The top industries who hire from these elite universities are essentially getting unqualified workers and managers, etc.–they are not the ‘smartest’ people. Since these are not the best, smartest people, our industries are suffering.</p>

<p>With a university system that requires basically an extremely difficult entrance exam only, the smartest students are the ones admitted, and the top industries that hire from the elite universities are assured of getting the best and smartest people. Since top industries are getting the smartest people, industries in those countries are thriving.</p>

<p>It’s related to the whole argument that the US is ‘getting soft’, that we are too entitled, expecting a lot from little work, etc.</p>

<p>This is an extremely simplistic argument to make. First, wages are very different between the two countries. I just read in the NYT about a 55 year old worker who earns $12 a day, lives in a company dorm, and works from 7am-11pm, 7 days a week. I guess you can say that if American workers weren’t softies who expected weekends and evenings off and a middle class lifestyle, we might have more economic success, but then who really benefits from that success?</p>

<p>Second, I think that there is less of an ‘elite’ university advantage in this country than in a country such as China, but I’m not absolutely certain about this. (And this is one of those perennial CC arguments–whether or not going to HYPMS etc., gives you an advantage in the job market).</p>

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<p>^ You forgot the motto of US elite colleges is to recruit “leaders”, “world changers”. What is the result of this recruiting philosophy? Don’t they recruit for economic success?</p>

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<p>Speaking only to job-market advantages (or not) for the U.S. student, I continue to believe that the effects are exaggerated. As you probably know, we’ve had other threads on this. It can be advantageous to have graduated from an elite U, but much depends on the convergence of 4 things: (1) one’s major field of study (2) one’s academic performance in that field compared to other students in that field (3) the ‘networking’ with profs et al., favorable relationships with them & their willingness to promote you, recommend you, etc. (4) timing. </p>

<p>Timing in the job market is probably more than 50% luck. Not only does “the” or “a” job appropriate to your level have to be there when you are actually ready to begin that job, but those reviewing or receiving applications have to actually be at least as bright as you are, so that you get maybe a millimeter of a chance to be considered, let alone interviewed. In saturated job markets (locations & fields or roles) that in itself can be quite a challenge. Sometimes the sheer number of apps (as with college apps) works against the applicant being thoughtfully considered. In my experience, the minority of firms and institutions are staffed with decision-makers who delegate appropriately or review appropriately themselves. The job market can be brutally impersonal, depending on levels of local unemployment and how it is decided the applications will be read, let alone replied to.</p>

<p>Recent CC reporting:
Some particular CC parents have reported that sons & daughters have done well in immediate job placement after ‘elite’ education.
Others have reported the same kind of limited success (slightly different field, lower pay, more roundabout or delayed placement) that are true of graduates of much less elite institutions.</p>

<p>I don’t think that any consistency is predictable, especially in a prolonged, faltering (or at least inconsistent) economy such as is true of the U.S. currently. </p>

<p>And the reverse is of course true. Yesterday I had a conversation with a close friend of mine, who has met a young man locally who graduated from a mid-level state university (not a flagship), then went to MIT, went on to work at one of the 3 top Ivies, and is now going to do some post-grad work or something at another Ivy. “Ordinary” undergrad institution for sure. I get the idea from my friend that he took a lot of initiative in his undergrad work and is rather entreprising.</p>