One more thing, I hope you haven’t told your own kids that the only reason they got into good schools is because you are rich and they were just lucky.
I know in our own case my D - who I’m guessing that @FCCDAD would say from birth was desitined to go on to a “good” college - was definitely NOT headed to our state flagship or anything resembling a big name a mere two years ago. She really had to turn it around. We knew people in much more “unlucky” circumstances who were majorly advantaged compared to us!!!
@educateddarcy I completely agree! @FCCDAD your opinion seems extreme to me. I take offense that getting into a good school is purely luck. That is absurd! My son worked his rear end off to get into one of your so called “trophy schools” all while holding down 2 jobs!!!.
Money doesn’t directly buy college admission. But it sure buys good nutrition, and a house in a good school district, and enriching opportunities, and books and toys and games that encourage thinking, and extracurricular activities, and all kinds of other subtle things that have an effect on development. College educated parents don’t get you into or through college, but they sure provide a standard model for that kind of life.
Please don’t misquote me. I didn’t say “getting into a good school is not an achievement.” I said, “Getting to go to college at all - and much more so a good college - is not a reward or prize or achievement.” Getting to go at all is not the same as getting in.
I also said, “It’s largely,” (not completely, but mostly), “a matter of luck, being born to the right parents, who raise you a certain way with certain values, with good jobs, living in safe neighborhoods with good schools. You know almost from birth who will go on to a good college and who will not, probably 90%+ confidence level.”
Are advantaged kids in competition? Sure - with other advantaged kids.
Only one child is in school so far, and she knows very well that she has had opportunities and support and examples that put her on a good path that many, many kids do not get to walk at all. I was not rich (check out thread about what is middle class? for more on that subject), and yes she was lucky but not just lucky.
Top schools (Ivies, etc.) make quite a push to let low income kids know that there is plenty of financial aid available and money won’t keep them out. What they don’t publicize is that it’s still really hard to find low income kids who are prepared and able to work at that level. It’s really hard to move from dodging bullets and stepping over crack pipes to doing university research. Now they’re just redefining “low income,” saying families earning six figures (!) are needy. It’s sure not because their endowments were all used up on kids living below the poverty line.
There’s a famous line about former President George W. Bush - “He was born on third base and though he’d hit a triple.” Meanwhile the kid up at bat has never had coaching, is using a flyswatter for a bat, and Bush is saying, “I got here, you can, too!”
There’s also a famous Dr. Seuss story, “The Sneetches.” Everyone here should read it.
@TheAtlantic I love your comment. It’s so true. But also I think that our generation (parents of high schoolers) has encouraged our kids to define “The Best” in such a narrow fashion. Compare the following situations (which are based on real life examples I know of):
The kid who is a first generation student going off to community college. He/she hopes to transfer to State U someday, once the Gen Ed’s are out of the way.
The kid who had to make do with CMU, having been rejected from all the Ivy’s and Stanford.
The kid who defers enrollment in order to go out and earn some hard cash and try to figure out a direction. Why waste money on a year of college if he/she is just going to drop out either due to poor grades or lack of enthusiasm/direction? Better to grow a year or two, then re-apply.
The kid who got into Northwestern Engineering, but received a full ride at her state university’s decent engineering program - so she’s going there instead.
The kid who, despite her family’s constant pressure to attend something much cheaper, got into private school, got a bunch of merit aid and worked on her own with the Financial Aid office to get the rest of her tuition paid for. Plus she got a laptop scholarship. And she worked out her living arrangement so it wouldn’t put any financial pressure on her family.
Now, which one of these kids is “The Best”? Answer: They ALL are the best and they ALL deserve a trophy. Seriously.
The point is that everyone has a story behind that admission or that decision or that deferment. I know lots of kids who chose “meh” colleges not because they had no other options but because the school put out major dough for them . . . and they were confident enough in themselves that they knew they’d do just fine. Or “Meh U” happened to have a very selective program in some field that’s not obvious to all the parent pouring over who got into where. And finally, I know kids who were majorly bummed because their acceptances were “restricted” to the top 30 (as opposed to the top 15).
It’s really all about the kid and his/her attitude, confidence, and sense of perspective. When we make it about what is right for the individual kid, and NOT about competing to be “The Winner” (and everyone else “the loser”) it totally changes the game.
@scout07 I have no idea who you are quoting. “Trophy schools” is not a phrase I use.
Taking the larger view, @FCCDAD is correct. Of course it will vary individually.
Frankly, my S didn’t “work his butt off,” as the saying goes, to get into Top 10 colleges.
He was born gifted. He was born to educated parents who, although for a goodly portion of his later childhood were financially pressed, still had a house full of books and an upper-middle class background who took him to museums and saw to it that he had music lessons even if they postponed medical care for themselves. Who found a way to get him started in a foreign language in third grade, even though the school didn’t offer it. Who also made sure that he participated in team sports he liked, so that his life would be well-rounded. Who scraped up the additional funds to send him to CTY in the summer, beyond the scholarship he received. (Who even knew of CTY…how many parents do?) My S cruised through a schedule of the maximum classes that could be taken at our HS, for two years actually exceeding that via an independent study for which he met with teachers during his one study hall period per week. He took the most rigorous schedule possible, actually more so because of the AP French Lit independent study: no problem, no loss of sleep and so on, despite being a 3-season varsity athlete, private music lessons and weekly youth symphony rehearsals.
If he had in fact worked harder for grades, he would have gotten into an “upper Ivy” instead. >:) (Believe me, I know how completely ludicrous this distinction is.)
I appreciate that a lot of kids had to work harder than he did. But frankly, the other kids in his class who got into Ivies and other elite schools all won the genetic lottery too. And were born into the right families. Some of them worked harder than others. But they all accumulated enough honors as they went along that they did not need an official gloating day at school.
Seems to me there could be a difference between “proud” and “gloating”.
Totally agree about nature versus nurture. But FCC dad is only arguing the nurture part.
@Consolation maybe they could have been the ones handing out the cupcakes to everyone else.
My D attends a high school that is quite diverse in all areas. The kids go on to a bunch of stuff from Ivey’s to cc. The kids generally like the T shirt Day and it’s such a diverse community that no one feels odd or embarrassed. Whoever wants to can get videotaped holding up a blank screen and the college name gets edited in later. Not everyone participates in that but I think that has more to do with kids having other things going on at that time. It’s a pretty busy, active class. But I’ve noticed the past few years I’ve seen this video that the schools are just all over the place - from the most selective to the least. And that’s ok with the kids.
I’m still not sure what FCCDAD is saying.
I also think that it is hysterical that you wrote that your own daughter was not just lucky but anyone else’s kid from a good home is lucky.
Who cares how George Bush got to third base? Some get there by err (being lucky), some get there by hitting a single and having teammates move them over, some get there by hitting a triple. All end up on third.
It is easier for those with the means to pay for the coaching and hitting practice. Others just work and work at the public park. Many pro baseball players come from very poor beginnings but still get to wear the t-shirt on game day.
My own kids had pretty rough starts to life. One was born on the streets, no medical care, no vaccinations, no matching baby outfits. She overcame it but working hard and studying. Other child had nothing but medical coverage spending 89 days in the NICU. They played the cards they were dealt. I agree they were lucky to have the pushy, educated mother who kept them on track. The rest they earned.
This. It’s all any of us can do.
Well said scholarme. My husband actually has a funny name for the kids that go into their parents successful business. He calls it Daddy U. Of course now it can also be called mommy u! He’s jealous as hell that life was so easy for these kids because he himself came from a poor and uneducated upbringing but he also knows that if you work hard enough, even without the benefit of rich, cultured parents, you too can succeed! And that’s based on nature, not nurture!
I go to a high ranked public high school in a college town of what some may consider a “public ivy”. Last year, there were ~350 kids graduating, no more than 15 were going to Community College, and less than that were going in to the work force.
We have a college t-shirt day on May 1st and i personally think it’s awesome. With a class of 350, there are a lot of kids who I “know” but am not friends with. So it’s exciting to see everyone wear their shirts and talk to people and extend congratulations. I also know good and well that I will not be going to a top school, but that doesn’t bother me. I’m going to be happy where I end up and I want to celebrate my achievements as well as my classmates. Also, my school prints all the seniors plans in the school newspaper, as well as a senior award ceremony, where all the seniors who got scholarships and such get recognized. so even those who may not be the type to preticipate in traditions, still get their achievements out there.
At the age of 18, I think most people are aware that life isn’t fair, and you do the best with what you got, and that seems to work out well for most people.
I pretty much agree with FCCDAD. Just look at the student demographics at the top colleges.
Though the data’s a few years old, here’s a snippet from a NY Times article from last year -
"In 2006, at the 82 schools rated “most competitive” by Barron’s Profiles of American Colleges, 14 percent of American undergraduates came from the poorer half of the nation’s families, according to researchers at the University of Michigan and Georgetown University who analyzed data from federal surveys. That was unchanged from 1982.
And at a narrower, more elite group of 28 private colleges and universities, including all eight Ivy League members, researchers at Vassar and Williams Colleges found that from 2001 to 2009, a period of major increases in financial aid at those schools, enrollment of students from the bottom 40 percent of family incomes increased from just 10 percent to 11 percent."
I also agree that it’s probably the parents who care more than the kids.
FCCDad is right in the sense that the vast majority (but not all) of the kids with parents who post to CC or who are otherwise privledged got a running start and are privileged. Some more so than others. Just being born in the USA, not in an inner city with terrible schools, in a supportive family with working parent(s) and decent schools puts those kids at an advantage. As discussed in other threads (the Fieldston vs University High one for example), it is incredibly difficult for a kid born into extreme poverty in under-performing inner-city schools to get to college and stay long enough to graduate. I wish there was a way to solve that, but it is a very difficult problem. Of course, those that start out with privilege have to work hard to get into a top school, but in all likelihood their parents will send them to some college no matter their HS GPA.
I don’t see what that has to do with wearing your college T-shirt to celebrate your next step in life. IMO, it is even more important to celebrate those few kids from inner city or low SES schools that have overcome all of the obstacles to graduate high school and go to college. Even at a school with a smaller population of under-privileged kids, it could serve as motivation. An underclassman who sees a kid from his neighborhood walking the halls on May 1 with a college t-shirt may realize it is possible to get there and follow that path.
The vast majority of kids, even from a “good” high school are not wearing t-shirts from the top 20. Many kids, as ntk says, are somewhat in awe of those kids at the top and really do celebrate their abilities, just as they support the kid that is going to play their sport in college (provided the kid is a nice person and not a jerk about it).
Thanks ntk, I am glad to see a student’s perspective.
What is the .principal supposed to do to stop it since it is organized BY THE KIDS? Tell seniors they are not allowed to wear their college t-shirts? How would that even work? Give detention to 3/4 of the senior class? Learning to deal with disappointment and jealousy is a critical life lesson.
I guess I wonder if college t-shirt day rubs differences in kids’ noses any more than the difference in clothes do every day–at least in a school that doesn’t have uniforms. At a high school near me, the parking lot is full of expensive cars driven to school by students, while a bus brings other students from a nearby low-income development.
As I said above, I think there’s a line, and it’s difficult to draw. It seems OK to me to recognize achievements and life stages, but it also seems reasonable to me to think of others’ feelings. If I were the king of a high school, I think I would not have a special t-shirt day–rather, I would ask kids to refrain from wearing their college gear until a set date after most decision dates. Obviously, that date would become a de facto t-shirt day, but I think that would have a different feel from a special event.
“King of a High School”? I’d tell parents to let their 17 and 18 year old students figure out T-shirt day themselves. Compared to most issues they’ll encounter in life (indeed, have already encountered) T-shirt day is extremely (extremely!) minor. Frankly, I’m surprised a thread meant to be a discussion of different decision day traditions has turned into a rich vs. poor, haves vs. have nots discussion. Maybe I should encourage my son to become a therapist to deal with number of kids traumatized by T-shirt Day?