College - Female Dominated

Parent Cafe
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<p>“I am very fortunate that my husband has always felt that the kids and home are as much his responsibility as mine.”</p>

<p>I am fortunate in that way as well and in hindsight, my absolute need to work probably made for a better parenting situation for my kids. But as a separate human being, I would have liked some time at home when they were little to smell the roses a bit, go to Mommy and Me, playdates, etc. This is the only life I have and I would have liked some time at home back then for my own soul, but life didn’t work out that way and the kids are great. Over the course of a lifetime, the at home time can be very short but very valuable.</p>

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<p>I certainly hope you weren’t referring to me as a self-righteous SAHM; regarding what would happen if my husband were unable to work - I kept up my skills by doing volunteer work (my undergrad degree was in journalism, so I was able to put that to use with the various groups I volunteered for - I’ve since learned not to tell people what my undergrad degree is in!). We do live in an expensive area of the country, at least by most standards, and we chose a smaller house (frankly, I didn’t want my time taken up by the maintenance of a bigger house and yard), but big enough to be comfortable (1800 sq.ft.). Vacations have gotten better over the years, only because I began to make them a priority - I wanted to have those memories of traveling with my kids; and frankly, because my parents never traveled much (it was rare to leave the state), I never developed a love of travel, and therefore felt very naive about the world. I felt that exposing my children to cultures other than American would be a huge asset to them in their education since we now live in such a global economy/village. But you know what, I don’t have any fancy jewelry (other than one of my mom’s rings), I don’t have expensive hobbies, I don’t shop at upscale stores, and don’t pay others to do what we can do ourselves (other than a maid twice a month). We do most of our own house repairs, yardwork, etc. </p>

<p>Yes, my husband makes a nice salary, but we’ve also not had to take out any loans due to our saving for their college above some of those more costly expenses. If we lived closer to my husband’s work, it would take much more money to afford a house, so our compromise was a 45-minute commute for him so we could afford something reasonable. I only drive a luxury car because I used some inheritance money to purchase it - I do a LOT of driving for my job (the car is almost three years old and almost has 50,000 miles on it), and with the kind of work I do, wanted something I can kind of escape in, in between appointments, and something reliable and safe. We tend to keep cars for 10 years, so even in that light, I don’t necessarily consider it too much of a luxury. </p>

<p>If my husband ditches me, I have sequenced my life in such a way that I would be employable (in fact I work part-time now that my kids are gone) full-time; I would be willing to move into an even smaller place, and I could give up the luxury car. The only thing that would be a catastrophe for us would be a devastating illness, but even with that, we have an umbrella insurance policy, so hopefully we would not be out on the streets.</p>

<p>As an aside, for all those moms who have posted here that they breastfed - in my days of being a La Leche League leader, one of my favorite benefits of breastfeeding to tout was the money saved. Did you know that for every six months you breast feed, you have saved enough money to purchase a major appliance?</p>

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<p>

This is what I would call “Either/Or Thinking” as opposed to “Both/And Thinking.”</p>

<p>I think that many women, including myself, have benefited from working/thinking in an alternative way. I had the big business career for a number of years before kids. Worked full time for a few more years after that. I chose, with the complete support of my wonderful husband, to stay home with kids for 16 years. During that time, I typically worked at least part time, while volunteering in a multitude of ways at my kids’ schools and in the community at large. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t trade the years home with my kids for anything in the world, and would never look at it as “time wasted” or as boring childcare. Raising two kids has been the most creative, toughest job I’ve ever had. Business is easy in comparison.</p>

<p>Now that I am in the process of completing this phase of my life, I feel completely free to look at all the possibilities that are out there. I’m not trapped in a dead-end job, and I have several possibilities for returning to the business world. I’m a different person than I was 16 years ago, and I can tell you that nothing scares me anymore – I’ve just about gotten two sons through adolescence! I have at least 15 to 20 years to work, and I’m excited at the prospect. </p>

<p>I believe that anyone can do anything they choose. But you just can’t do everything at the same time. Dads who work long hours and/or travel really DO miss out on stuff with kids. Same with Moms. That said, I also know families with two working parents whose kids are terrific. For me, it’s not a question so much of whether or not kids lose out when both parents work – it’s the parents who miss out.</p>

<p>I just don’t view life as a competitive game, which is won or lost based on status or income. It’s all the stuff that happens along the way that makes life meaningful.</p>

<p>Wow, I just read all the posts above. I really don’t judge other people for the lifestyle choices they make. I assume people are smart enough to do what works best for their families. I think there are many variations that work – but H and I BOTH had the high-stress, high-income lots-of-travel jobs. It didn’t work for US to have both in that kind of work situation with little kids.</p>

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<p>I agree with SJMom’s last paragraph - she reiterates the point I was trying to make. It all boils down to this simple thing: Everyone should do whatever is best for their family, without judging others.</p>

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<p>Having a job/career that involved little or no travel was a primary requirement for both of us, with an eye to family involvement. As the one who had the afternoon shift of pick-up and whatever from pre-school through senior year ballet classes, I wouldn’t have missed it for the world.</p>

<p>It’s not “Both” thinking if you sacrifice 20 years of career in the process and aren’t happy with it. If you were happy with choice, great for you. But please don’t dare suggest that those who have decided differently did so within an inferior framework.</p>

<p>ZM: I like your post #32.</p>

<p>====</p>

<p>One thing that I’ve observed over a lot of years is that regardless of lifestyle configuration, there sure isn’t a lot of <em>thoughtful</em> parenting. Or at least not nearly so much as I wish there were. So many micro branch-points are decided on the basis of defaults and expediency, rather than asking, what are the implications of this? And no, I’m not such a purist to suggest that we weren’t often in default- or expedient-mode in decisions ourselves, but there was often also a broader view.</p>

<p>Our particular hobby horse was involving D in adult decision-making processes early on, first as a monitor, and then increasingly with age-appropriate items (sometimes pushing the boundary a little, like having an 11 year old discuss where we should do vacations with attendant financial implications) participating so that she could see how adults went about making decisions instead of just having them imposed by fiat from above.</p>

<p>The two benefits of this have been a D who’s pretty good at making a wide range of decisions once she left for college and we got a whole lot less push back during adolescence.</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo, You and your H sound like great parents! Wow! I honestly envy your energy. I don’t know how you do it, but I think that you are the exception, not the rule. Unfortunately here’s what I see while working with kids in an after school program once a week:
Kids are droppped off at “before care” at 7:00 a.m. and have breakfast with some other groggy kids and a pretty unenthused adult who is in charge of what she often calls “the holding cell.”
3:15: Drama starts, but many of the kids have forgotten their snacks, dance shoes or script. It’s always the same kids, I have extras of all and bring them every week. Rehearsal ends at 6:00 P.M. but unfortunately every week there are at least three kids who’s parents are once again late. We chat and they tell me that “Mommy is probably late because she had to stop to get dinner.” Or that daddy is probably caught in traffic. They tell me that from drama they often go to other activities or run errands with a parent, so some nights they need to eat in the car. When they get home, there is little time for homework, so big school projects and things like practicing for the play can cause problems.
I think that there are definately people out there like you and I see some of them too. Once again, I’m always amazed at how organized and energetic they are. Unfortunately I see a lot more of the other situation and I will say that I do think that it’s sad and stressful for the kids and the parents.
Everyone has to do what works for their families, but some DO A BETTER JOB than others, I’m sorry but it’s true.</p>

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<p>I will not take credit for being exceptionally energetic (and I will admit that my kids have eaten more than once in the car :wink: … my son played soccer up to a very high travel level for quite a few years…). Now, when I think back on those years, I don’t know how I did it, because often I don’t feel very energetic these days when I get home from work! </p>

<p>In our case, I think a lot of the reason our lives were manageable had to do with the fact that we moved to a location half way between our jobs when my older child was entering first grade. Our jobs are about 15-20 minutes from our home and the elementary school our kids attended was even closer than that. My kids did not need to go to “before care”, and, actually, the kids of my neighbor, who is a teacher who needed to leave for work prior to our school bus time, came to my house for about half an hour before school for many years. Prior to moving, we were much further away from our jobs, and I don’t think it would have worked out well if we had not moved. My husband’s job involves a lot of travel, but he was able to schedule his trips around my schedule, on the very infrequent occasions when I needed travel or work late at night, etc. Anyway, I don’t want to pat myself on the back at all … I just want to say that I am fortunate that, due to many factors including job flexibiilty, location, etc., things worked out well for us.</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo, I think that you deserve to pat yourself on the back! I’ve tried it and I’m telling you I was a wreck!
Allmusic, I pray that my H does not dump me because even though I only have one child still in hs I’d be up a creek! I know how fortunate I am and I thank God every day for what I have. I also am conscious of the need for woman to be able to stand on their own two feet if they need to and I encourage my kids to be prepared to do just that.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, in the lower socio-economic demographic the disparity between male and female achievement is even more stark. As other people here have pointed out the academic achievement disparity has significant impacts on social and family structures.</p>

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<p>

And where, exactly, did I suggest that other people’s choices were “within an inferior framework.” Please don’t put your words in my posts.</p>

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<p>originaloog, I don’t quite understand what you mean. People in the lower SES groups have fewer options, period. In most cases with which I’m familiar, both parties work in low-paying, few benefits jobs. It’s not usually the case that a lawyer is married to a fast-food worker.</p>

<p>I know of one case where the wife (a sorority sister) is an MD, and her husband is a mechanic. They are also of very different ethnic/faith backgrounds. But last time I heard, they were the very happy parents of three.</p>

<p>I thought I’d add that I was the only SAHM in my family. Both of my sisters and my SIL worked while raising kids. So I don’t have a built-in bias, other that the notion that raising children is a lot of hard work, no matter how you approach it.</p>

<p>The issue of how many children a family has makes a huge difference. Childcare is expensive! My husband and I found that we could balance the two high-stress careers with one child – that went out the window with two kids. </p>

<p>Finally, if you stay in one place, with reliable child care, neighbors and relatives to help when needed, that makes a difference. We’ve had two interstate moves, and one international move. The only reason anything worked is that I became the project manager for each relocation – they really are VERY disruptive to family life.</p>

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<p>sjmom - I think Originalog is changing the subject to a totally different topic - the fact that in some low socio-economic groups, many more women than men pursue education and obtain good jobs, contributing to the prevalence of unstable family structures in those groups.</p>

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<p>The New York Times article from July (I think there was a thread about this ) seems to support the theory, among others, that the disparity between men and women on campuses exists proportional to socioeconomic status. </p>

<p>[At</a> Colleges, Women Are Leaving Men in the Dust - New York Times](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?ex=1310097600&en=cd9efba2e9595dec&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss]At”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?ex=1310097600&en=cd9efba2e9595dec&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)</p>

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<p>I would say that kids are “raised” by whomever provides the majority of the care.</p>

<p>The “sad” part to which I have referred previously involves the fact that our kids are at home w/ us for really such a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things. Each moment is precious (IMHO) and it is IS sad when parents choose to spend time & effort at some job instead of with their own children. It IS sad when parents pick their kids up in the evening and the daycare provider says, “Your child did the most amazing thing today!” and “mom” or “dad” missed it. It IS sad when the kids leave home & parents realize they can never have that time with their little ones back again.</p>

<p>Hey, I’m not making any judgements - if YOU want to work instead of being at home, that’s your choice. I’m not CRITICIZING anyone for that choice - I’m just saying that, at this point in my life, as the kids start to leave, I’m SO glad I got to be with them as much as I have. No job or any amount of money could have ever compared to that!</p>

<p>… and now, as a new career is on the horizon, I get to have my cake and eat it too! It’s all good - no regrets!</p>

<p>There’s a big abortion debate on another thread & I sort of feel like in that debate, as well as in most any argument, one side is easy to justify and one side isn’t. That’s how I usually decide what is the right thing to do in my life. For us, it was a no-brainer - the right thing to do was to give my FULL effort to the parent role. That was my responsibility.</p>

<p>Also, I wanted to mention that I am far from “the perfect parent”. There are lots of times when I fell short of my own expectations, so again, I’m not making any judgements - I’m just saying I’m glad I made the choice I did. I wish for everyone to be happy in his/her choices, whatever they are!</p>

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<p>You contrasted your implied superior “Both” approach with a presumed and by implication “Either/Or” approach. I do not cede that ground or accept that smug framing.</p>

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<p>bz2010, </p>

<p>There is no reason for me to argue with you about your opinion of whether my husband and I raised our kids or not. In fact, the concept that we didn’t raise them strikes me as so ludicrous that I cannot control myself from laughing out loud as I compose this post. If you were to suggest to our kids, our extended family (including families with working and SAHM moms), our friends, our co-workers, or our neighbors that we didn’t raise our kids, they would wonder where you got such an absurd idea. </p>

<p>Do any of your friends or family members have two working parents? Do you REALLY think they are not raising their kids?</p>

<p>PS Maybe I should change my screen name to MotherOfTwoKidsWhoWereRaisedByOthers :eek: (sorry for the sarcasm)</p>

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<p>

You seem to see a real dichotomy in the choices women make regarding work or family. You pointed out that your wife could not be happy in the role of a traditional, stay at home mom. Your words convey the idea that no intelligent, ambition woman could want that life. Am I misinterpreting you?</p>

<p>By the way, I’ll be the first to say that staying home, raising kids, is not a barrel of laughs 24/7. But neither was working in an office environment.</p>

<p>I have said that raising a family is hard work, whether or not one or both parents work. I have said that women don’t have to make a choice to be EITHER a career woman OR a stay at home mother. I have said that women can choose to be BOTH a career woman AND a SAHM, at different times, under different circumstances. You seem to want to put words in my mouth, to paint me as a caricature of a “traditional woman.” Do you disagree? </p>

<p>Like most women I know, I am a multidimensional woman, with opinions and values which do not always fall into a + or - column on a spreadsheet. Because you disagree with a number of my opinions, you seem to want to ascribe ALL other opinions with which you disagree, to me. Why don’t you let me speak for myself.</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo - I never said - or even suggested - that you didn’t raise your kids. I proposed that kids are “raised” by whomever provided the most care for them.</p>

<p>That’s all.</p>

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<p>bz2010 - </p>

<p>Sorry if my logic is flawed somehow. </p>

<p>In post #17, you said, “The “sad” part is when kids are taken to a day-care to be raised by a non-family member & both children and parents miss out on the time together.” </p>

<p>My kids went to daycare since they were infants, I think 3 days a week until they were about one year old, and five days a week, except for when they were sick, holidays, and vacations, after they were one year old. I think they went to daycare normally from about 8:30 AM until about 5 or 5:15 PM (they are 20 and 23 now, so a lot has happened since then and I might be off by a bit…). Does that mean we didn’t raise them?</p>

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<p>One of my favorite people in the world is my ob-gyn. She married at nineteen and had four children; one while she was in medical school. Her husband got a PhD. in physics and is a physicist.</p>

<p>She had two round-the-clock nannies so all needs would be met at all times. My S would probably died without her; in fact, I probably wouldn’t have children without her because after I was divorced from my first husband she told me I’d better get pregnant soon if I wanted to or my fibroids would destroy my chances. (Sorry if this is too much detail for our wonderful fathers.)</p>

<p>I must also take into account the wonderful contributions to society and the lives of other people working moms can make.</p>

<p>I will say that after my first post-partum visit with my daughter, she had me keep her company while she pumped her breast milk and ate her lunch. I guess she figured she’d seen all of me, she didn’t mind what I saw of her.</p>

<p>Here’s to you Dr. DD.</p>

<p>I was lucky that my work hours coincided with those hours when the kids were in school. I can’t say I was especially virtuous that this occurred; just lucky.</p>

<p>Studies have shown that all mothers of our generation, working and stay at home, have more than three times the face time with their children than our mothers did. It didn’t matter to me that my mom was home when she shooed me out to “go out and play” or when she was coffee klatching with her friends.</p>

<p>This is not a knock to stay-at-home moms. I know how much you, too contribute as class moms, volunteers, contact parents for working parents. I salute you too.</p>

<p>Raising children well is hard no matter what the circumstances. It’s also the most fun thing I’ve ever done.</p>

<p>I bet we can all agree on that.</p>

<p>And my beloved Dr. DD said, “It’s not the hand that rocks the cradle, it’s the heart that beats for you.” Her children are dreamboats.</p>