Community College for the 1st Two Years: Have You Thought About it?

ACCecil · November 1, 2010, 2:19pm

Community Colleges were started in this country to bring a university education to the masses without having the masses leaving where they lived and worked.

At first, CC’s focused on vocational training that traditional university educations didn’t touch such as being an automoble mechanic or an airconditioner repair guy but soon the mission expanded to include remedial work for students who came out of high school unprepared for college.

Most CC’s do not have housing (dorms).

Soem CC’s do have athletic programs but most do not.

Almost all CC’s have articulation agreements with the 4-year schools and, at this point, I am pretty sure more than half the students at 4-year universities nationwide started at a CC.

Universities do not have enough resources to adequately teach freshman and sophomore level classes so they are more than happy to let CC’s do that work and then take the students once they get to the junior level.

It costs far less to get an education at a CC than it does at a university in tuition, that might be reason alone to consider a CC for the first two years, but in addition to the savings in tuition and fees don’t forget your son or daughter can live at home for those two years and get a little more mature before they move out of the house and tackle a university work load.

I teach at a big (40,000+ students) CC in Orlando, FL. I was a student at this same CC immediately after high school. I never even took the SAT. I got an AA degree and transferred to a public 4-year degree granting institution and never looked back. Neither oen of the my parents went to college and right after high school I was clueless to put it mildly so a CC made a huge difference for me.

My sons are 16 and 12 and I first thought about sending them off to school once they got old enough. I fell in love with Lehigh in Pennsylvania and Elon and Wake Forest and a few other places. There is a certain charm and romance of “going away to school” that I don’t want to rob my sons from having. But then, as I researched the public vs private debate, it occurred to me that public school were no longer willing to concede the best and brightest students to the privates so they battled back by starting “honors” colleges which attempt to give the students a challenging curriculum without losing all the great things about being at a big, public university and that made alot of sense to me.

It turns out the CC that I work out has an honors college too. Laugh if you want but students from the honors college here routinely get scholarships to places you might not laugh at. Your friends might snicker behind your back if your kids decide to got the CC route. That is a factor. That is okay. Remember that as you read about how people are saddled with debt and can’t get jobs in their bizarre degrees.

Food for thought.

Longhaul · November 1, 2010, 2:51pm

My family is very sensitive to the cost of education, so Community College is certainly a real consdieration for us.

However, our CC is not cheap compared to other regions. Our CC isn’t easily accessible by public transportation. We are just close enough to Philly to incur auto insurance costs of city living, which is a huge chunk of money for an 18 year old who needs his/her own car.

Couple this with the fact a nice number of merit is only available to freshmen and that we do have direct train access to Philadelphia, it makes the CC comparable financially to some 4 yr schools with commuting.

That said, I think our CC has some programs that are MUCH better than area 4 year schools. The Nursing program is superb!

Academically, I have taken CC classes for “fun” after earning my BA. Some subjects are “watered down”, but most are taught at a pace on par of the 4 yr schools. The only true difference is peer group – You will find many more apathetic 18 yr olds at CC because they do not have a clue what to do after high school graduation. Most of these students do not remain more than a semester or two. IME, The night students are composed of working adults (age 18-50) who are very serious about the academics. This means the same course with the same instructor can have a very different “vibe.”

As for snickering – I could care less since it is my family saddled with any debt.

amandakayak · November 1, 2010, 3:16pm

Our town is home to the local cc and yes, it is the choice for alot of people. Yes, they have honors level courses. Yes, people transfer to great 4 yr colleges with name recognition. It might be the last place kids want to go - used regularly as a threat for underperforming seniors - but there it is, right down the street. My only problem with it as an option is the faculty and level of instruction. It welcomes everyone and so if you are a C student in local HSs, it might be fine. If you are an AP/honors type, it is a serious step down even in their honors-level classes with a few exceptions. Teachers regularly cancel class, don’t show up, cut classtime arbitrarily. Even if the credits transfer, I’m not sure you learn the same amount. e.g. you might just get what you pay for.

Naturally · November 1, 2010, 3:17pm

I went to a community college, then transferred to a 4-year. The CC was great, the teachers were excellent, and the class sizes were small. I’m at a flagship public university now. Most of my CC courses were just as rigorous as the university courses I’ve taken so far. The learning style is pretty much the same. The grading of tests and papers, so far, has been comparable.

Longhaul is right about there being different class cohorts between CCs and four-years. But I’ve never found that the less academically-inclined students hold the class back–usually they just get bad grades or fail. I was friends with some super achievers and some academic slackers at CC . . . Everyone has an interesting story to tell and it’s not like C’s and D’s are catching. Night classes and weekend classes (I had a biology class that met once a week on Saturdays, four hours at a time) attract busier, more attentive, and usually older students.

Interestingly, it’s harder to get to know your classmates at my public U, as the campus is huuuge, so everyone always seems to be on a mad dash to get across campus in the ten minutes between classes. (I imagine this is easier if you live in or near student housing, but the apartment I ended up in is a 30 minute bus ride from the campus. Oh well!)

Incidentally, on a different thread someone theorized that CC kids text in class more than kids in four-year colleges . . . Definitely not the case. Those big lecture halls at the university have lots of kids texting in them because they know they won’t get caught.

psych_2 · November 1, 2010, 3:37pm

I don’t think CC is necessarily cost effective for students who are looking for–and competitive for–big merit aid (which I’d think of as knocking the per year tuition, fees, room, and board coast down to about $10k-$15k or less). Not many scholarships are available for transfer students and those that are available aren’t usually that substantial. Additionally, CC could have the potential to hurt kids who are interested in grad or med school and thus need early and plentiful access to research opportunities. Finally, it could also be a poor decision for those who could use AP or IB credits to get out of most general ed requirements. I do think it’s an excellent idea in some circumstances, but it may not be the most cost effective or beneficial option for all.

JHS · November 1, 2010, 3:41pm

<ol>
<li>“[A]t this point, I am pretty sure more than half the students at 4-year universities nationwide started at a CC.” That can’t even be close to right.</li>
</ol>

I couldn’t find any figures directly on point easily. But in 2006 and 2007, 35% of all college students were community college students. In 2006, that was 6.2 million vs. 11.6 million in four-year college (and a smattering in non-community two-year college). In 2007, the percentage of college students 18-24 who were in community college was a little under 30%. So unless essentially 100% of community college students go on to four-year college, they couldn’t even be close to half of all four-year college students.

The available evidence is that only about 30% of community college students either complete their two-year degree or transfer to a four-year college. That was true as of last year in California, at least. In and of itself, California represents a sizable chunk of community college students, so if less than 30% of them are going to four-year college – a lot less, probably – I don’t see how community college students elsewhere could make up the difference.

Ballpark, ex-community college students maybe make up 10-15% of four-year college students.

<ol>
<li>The AA-to-BA route is popular in lots of places, and getting more so, for exactly the reasons the OP says. The risk is that the mainstream culture in community college is not about pushing yourself to go farther. A student has to be a disciplined self-starter to take full advantage of community college resources, and most of the students who are THAT disciplined and self-reliant go to four-year colleges after high school.</li>
<li>A few years ago, the small firm I was in had a great, young administrative assistant. She had gone to the city’s main academic magnet high school, and been in its “Mentally Gifted” program, but for economic reasons (and pretty much in defiance of school policy) had gone to community college and taken a substantial part-time job. She wanted to be a teacher, and didn’t want (or have the money) to pay a lot for her teaching degree. Since she was an outstanding employee, we kept offering her more responsibility and more pay, but asking her to work more hours, with the result that it took her four years to finish her AA. She registered at a four-year college, but was only taking a class or two per semester, and she petered out long before getting her degree. By then, her boyfriend had graduated from college, and they could afford to get married, but really only if she kept working full time, especially if they planned to have kids in the foreseeable future. </li>
</ol>

Bottom line, she probably won’t get her BA until she’s in her mid-30s, if ever. She’s smart, and making decent money given her education, but her intelligence and organizational skills could take her much, much farther than she is going to get along this path. (I used to argue with my then-partners that we had a moral responsibility to fire her, or at least restrict her hours, but they felt that if she wanted to be underemployed and let us exploit her, that was her business. And of course they were right to a large extent.)

Now, I wouldn’t argue that community college “did this to her”. But nothing in the culture of community college told her that she should be demanding more of herself and of her education. To the contrary, everything told her she was great, a winner – doing great in her courses, and making good money to boot! So why mess with a good thing?

Anyway, the point of this story is that here was a woman who was smart, disciplined, self-motivated, but not tremendously ambitious, and community college helped her hold herself back.

jonri · November 1, 2010, 3:42pm

Source? I think you are WAY off base. Here is some information regarding CCs from the Federal Reserve:

[From</a> Community College to a Bachelor’s Degree and Beyond: How Smooth Is the Road?](<a href=“Regional Economist | Publications | St. Louis Fed”>Regional Economist | Publications | St. Louis Fed)

The article says in pertinent part:

While I too couldn’t find the exact stat ACC made up out of thin air, I agree with JHS that it can’t possibly be true. However, even if you found a stat that said that former CC students constitute half of all students at 4 year colleges–and that’s a HUGE assumption–remember that if they take longer to get a 4 year degree than those who start at 4 year colleges, they might represent a higher % of students enrolled in 4 year colleges than of students who get a degree. Two different things.

I admit that I probably have a worse image of CCs than most folks. That’s because in NYC, CUNY offers the chance for just about everyone to start at a 4 year college, so the CC route rarely makes sense.

ACCecil · November 1, 2010, 4:06pm

Folks:

Thanks for the replies so far.

Regarding the stat that 50% or more of 4-year students started as CC students, I have heard that in meetings where I work, I am not positive and I do not know who gathered the data. I will say this, the CC I work at is in Orlando. The 4-year school in town is UCF. UCF has 50,000+ students and about 80% of them started at Valencia (the CC where I work).

I will comment on class environment since I see it everyday:

I completely agree with anyone who suggests that the class expectations and overall environment are not going to equal what you would find at a small or private university. However, if you take the classes I teach at UCF or UF or FSU you might be a lecture hall with 200 other kids and it might not be a PhD teaching it it might be a TA. Why? Because of what I said before – the 4-year schools do not have the resources to teach the freshman and sophomore level classes, they are more than happy to let CC’s do that and remedial work.

There are 24 students at the most in my classes. I do not have to research or publish. My job is 100% to teach. You not only have real access to the teacher but also to the writing lab, math lab, computer lab, etc.

To be honest, many of the students in my classes are not “high achievers.” The class environment, most days, isn’t on education. I have to come in and warm them up which I usually do with an open book quiz. If you son or daughter can get merit add that cuts $15K off of $50K that is still $35K per year but you are absolutely right they might not be challenged at a CC. I have quite a few students who really have no idea what they are doing in college. I have quite a few students who can’t read the book and/or won’t read it. Sound like a great environment? It isn’t always but you would be truely amazed at what CC teachers can do to get the material across.

I majored in accounting at FSU after I went to Valencia. I mastered in accounting and passed the CPA on the first shot so somebody did something right. I never had any trouble getting jobs. Not once did an ER look at my resmue or transcript and decide I didn’t know my stuff. The Ivy’s don’t even teach business to undergrads expect for Finance. They also teach economics. I am pretty sure, in subjects like that, going to a CC then a big state school can get you a pretty good business degree. You might not be on wall Street (unless you got to UNC or Virginia or UF) but then again you might.

ACCecil · November 1, 2010, 4:14pm

A typical day:

Out of a class of 24, 10 are waiting by the door when I show up, 5-6 more show up late and the rest are missing in action. Some are texting or on Facebook when I am talking. I can block the Internet (all my classes have computes in them) but you get the idea.

It isn’t Harvard.

As someone said, it is important for the student to be self motivated.

But, as far as the first two years go, I am pretty confident a CC education is on par with what you would get a big, public U. In fact, many of my students try the class at UCF and come back to Valencia to take it. Some have even told me at UCF it is a TV class.

Over the summers, I get a bunch of UF and FSU students are they are more than pleased at what happens at a CC. If the CC near you has an honors program don’t over look it. Also, look at what universities attend that CC’s College Night. You might be surprised at who is recruiting CC students. I have seen Yale and Duke, to name two, at Valencia’s College Night.

ACCecil · November 1, 2010, 4:23pm

My only problem with it as an option is the faculty and level of instruction. It welcomes everyone and so if you are a C student in local HSs, it might be fine.

-It is the right choice for these folks who then, after they TF to a 4-year school usually out perform the students who started at a 4-year school.

If you are an AP/honors type, it is a serious step down even in their honors-level classes with a few exceptions.

-I agree.

-Well, maybe not a “serious” step down. Again, for FR and SO classes it might not be a step down at all.

Teachers regularly cancel class, don’t show up, cut classtime arbitrarily. Even if the credits transfer, I’m not sure you learn the same amount. e.g. you might just get what you pay for.

-Absolutely false, in my experience.

-A teacher that does that will not last 5 minutes at any of the CC’s I’ve worked at.

-We are also not poor like K-12 teachers are.

-We get paid and paid more than fairly.

missypie · November 1, 2010, 4:34pm

Last semester my son was at an LAC. He dropped 2 classes so he ended up with 10 hours. Price (including room and board): $20,000. This semester he’s at cc, taking 10 hurs. Price (living at home): $450.

mythmom · November 1, 2010, 4:35pm

Here in the Northeast K-12 teachers are not poor. They average higher salaries in my school district than I make with my PhD. Fine with me. I had that option. Just want to correct misinformation. In addition, they have a much higher retirement plan.

I also teach at a very well respected CC. I can’t speak to the large publics, but I am sure that the rigor is NOT equal to what my kids got at their privates.

Each attend(ed)(s) a very competitive LAC. If I graded with equal rigor I might not have any passing students.

I think the information I am imparting and class discussion is excellent, but I have no doubt that in the humanities at least we don’t see the grade deflation that the best privates often have.

I am not making an argument in any direction, just offering my experience.

In addition, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve come into my classroom and the kids have not done the reading. Argggggh. It’s a continual battle. ITOH my own kids and their friends do do most if not all of their reading, and the volume is much greater.

I know our CC is better than some very weak local publics (not flagships.) I have heard this from friends, relatives, students. The classes are as small as what one finds at an elite LAC. However, I would not say the classes approach the intellectual rigor or academic seriousness of our best schools.

That said, if CC is all a student can afford, I think it is a very good deal. There are some excellent teachers who teach there and excellent students who attend.

jonri · November 1, 2010, 4:36pm

<a href=“http://uaps.ucf.edu/doc/AIR_CCFeedback_2010.pdf[/url]”>http://uaps.ucf.edu/doc/AIR_CCFeedback_2010.pdf</a>

Data from UCF itself shows that of those who entered UCF from VCC, 24% had received a degree 3 years later. 52% were still enrolled and 24% had left. So, it looks like I was right when I assumed that the percentage of students from CCs who enrolled in UCF might be substantially higher than the percentage of UCF grads who began at CCs because it took them longer to graduate.

Sure, top colleges recruit at community colleges. Do you have a CLUE what percentage of transfer applicants who apply to Yale are accepted each year? Between 2 and 5%.

Those aren’t great odds. But sure, if you’re got a great personal “story” you may get in. The typical middle class kid who went to a CC to save money? You’ve got a much better chance of winning the lottery.

missypie · November 1, 2010, 4:36pm

I have discovered a “dirty little secret” of my son’s cc and probably lots of others. Once you get past the into courses, a very large percentage of the classes are only offered online.

amandakayak · November 1, 2010, 4:39pm

Well glad your cc is better than the one in my town. I went there while in HS, my two nieces recently graduated from there and these are their experiences day to day.

ACCecil · November 1, 2010, 5:09pm

I have discovered a “dirty little secret” of my son’s cc and probably lots of others. Once you get past the into courses, a very large percentage of the classes are only offered online.

-We offer classes both online and face to face. But like I said we are huge. I am shocked a CC would ONLY offer a class online.

Sure, top colleges recruit at community colleges. Do you have a CLUE what percentage of transfer applicants who apply to Yale are accepted each year? Between 2 and 5%.

Those aren’t great odds. But sure, if you’re got a great personal “story” you may get in. The typical middle class kid who went to a CC to save money? You’ve got a much better chance of winning the lottery.

-I agree. I am not suggesting that a CC to Ivy route is a real plan for most people.

-But a CC to a public flagship is a very, very real plan for most folks.

-It is real simple. Real simple, folks. Compare the experience of the 1st two years. Gather information about the net cost (after FA). Then make an informed decision.

-The economy is not going to get much better anytime soon. The unemployment rate that the federal government says is just under 10% is probably closer to 15%.

-Be careful how much debt you accumulate to get that college degree. Both of my kids will go to graduate school so getting a 4-year degree is just one step on the way there. Too many people spend a damned fortune just to get the 4-year degree. They still have to buy a house, a car, plan for retirement, etc., etc.

-I don’t know about all CC’s but at the ones I have taught at I am wondering why people start at 4-year schools. Arizona State, just to give you one example, has an amazing accounting program, I know this from continuing ed conferences and so forth, and the CC in Phx supplies most of AZST’s students just like Valencia feeds UCF.

-The big, public 4-year schools do not have the resources to properly teach the FR and SO classes. That is why you see the giant lecture halls. Most CC’s can beat that hands down.

-The smaller LAC’s are different but they are much more expensive even after the FA.

-So do your own math and decide what works for you.

-I will say this. I have checked out my local CC’s honors and it is no joke. I do not expect it to lead to Yale but it is a great place for my kids to start.

mythmom · November 1, 2010, 5:22pm

I sent one student to Yale, one to Wellesley and many to Columbia School of General Studies. (We are right outside NYC.) Many, many go off to NYU, especially Steinhardt School of Teaching. Many go to Stony Brook or other SUNY schools with whom there is an automatic articulation agreement.

We do have online courses but not many of them. Our contract mandates that we must be on campus four days a week so there is not much advantage to most of us since on line classes are so time consuming to set up.

If we could avoid going to the physical plant, my sixty-year old bones would rejoice.

But I don’t see that happening in the near future.

In the past few semesters I have taught Shakespeare, a rigorous course in intellectual history, and a course in Psychoanalytic Interpretations of Literature (which I’m teaching right now.) None of these are online. Most of the papers are sad, but some are really exciting.

I have a lot of work to do because every course requires a review in how to right a convincing argumentative paper. (IT’S THE THESIS, STUPID.) There, got that off my chest. LOL.

happymomof1 · November 1, 2010, 5:24pm

Our local CC is excellent. Our family is truly fortunate because in all honesty it is all that we can afford.

SlitheyTove · November 1, 2010, 5:30pm

The situation really varies depending on the locale. Hereabouts in Southern California many of the CC teachers are adjunct faculty, stringing together single courses at several different CC’s. The pay is by the course, without benefits. Even before you account for the heavy commuting costs, it’s lower pay than for the K-12 teachers in the area.

The big issue that I see with the CC system in our area is course availability. Budget cuts means fewer courses being offered. There are more students, because fewer people can afford the public four-year schools, or because people who are out of work are returning to school. The end result is students having a very difficult time getting the classes that they need in order to continue towards a four-year school.

I’m glad to hear that things are better in other areas.

emilybee · November 1, 2010, 5:41pm

Our local CC is also excellent. My son is taking Physics there this semester (his small private prep school has an arrangement with them.)

My cousin’s daughter was a lousy student in high school and had no choice but to go to a CC. She hated it so buckled down and worked her tail off and was able to transfer to Clark after. She is now in grad school at UMass Amherst for college administration.

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