Community College for the 1st Two Years: Have You Thought About it?

ACCecil · November 3, 2010, 6:19pm

This reply is primarily towards the last two posts.

There is absolutely nothing a university can offer either of my kids that they can’t get at Florida State University. That is their opinion, not mine. When I first started my college search, which was really the first time in my life I had really researched the issue, I went to Valencia after high school by default and based on a complete and utter lack of planning and I went to Florida State after Valencia based on a road trip that me a few friends took in which we stayed in the dorms with my best friend’s sister and went to a football game and met people and were basically part of the scene for a weekend.

Frankly, when I got to FSU it had quite a bit in common with the movie Animal House and was in stark contrast to the classes I had at Valencia. In fact, I felt at the time that Valencia was actually a better school if you ignored the football team and dorms and just looked at actual teaching ad learning.

Don’t get me wrong: I loved my professors at FSU 90% of the time. They made me who I am professionally. But I lived in a dorm that was full of rowdy folks and it colored my views of the place. I guess I was a little more serious than they were at the time.

Here is my point:

I was blatantly biased against public schools when I first started my college search and shared with them what I found. I basically steered them away from the path I took. That led me to Lehigh and Wake and Davidson and Furman and Wofford and schools such as that that can take one’s breathe away. I can, and have, made a strong case for each of those schools but I kept looking at things including reading literally hundreds of students comments about those schools on web site’s such as Campus Crawler.

Check that out, parents. Unfiltered comments about a school from the students that go there. Trust me – not the same stuff you hear in the fancy brochure or on the tour. Valuable information. The kind of stuff that either confirms or alters one’s best estimates.

I don’t want my sons at a work only school. There has to be some balance. The older one MIGHT want to be an athletics director. He MIGHT want to be a community college Poly Sci teacher. He could go to Davidson and read books and write papers until he is blue in the face or he could go to FSU, which has a pretty good Poly Sci program, read and write far less and probably end up in the same job. Hell, it worked for me.

I practically begged, no I did beg, him to consider shooting for a big time dream school like Princeton, this is back when he wanted to play football in college, and his reply to me was if he wanted to be a CC teacher he really didn’t need to kill himself to get a Princeton education. I had to reflect on that. I had to admit he had a point.

I respect those families and kids that want to really change the world and they go to amazing schools and end up on Wall Street and in Wash DC and all that. I am not sure that is my kids. I think they are better suited for a big public U like FSU. They get a good degree. They have more than a little fun. They get into very good grad schools. They spring break in the Bahamas. And, hopefully, they end up in the jobs they wanted all along.

Lastly, a CC isn’t going to derail “yes-brainers.” The “yes-brainers” still over achieve and still get over involved and still end up at the 4-year schools they wanted all along. I advocate that parents and students consider CC’s if – wait for it – the first two year experience is as good or better than what they would get if they went straight to a 4-year school. It clearly would be for students who could go straight to UF, FSU or UCF in this state. It might be a BETTER experience because I am no fan of gigantic lecture halls where TA’s “teach” stuff to sleepy kids with no opportunity for questions.

The first two year experience MIGHT be better at a Patriot League school or Wake Forest or Elon but then again it ought to be – because it will be much more expensive. That might not have mattered a few years ago before the credit crisis and before unemployment was at 10% or higher – the new reality – but getting good value has never been out of style for me. It’s ironic that I never planned my college journey but even after researching it down to the bone I ended up right back where I started. It’s bizarre. It makes me feel like I didn’t search hard enough and trust me I’ve gone back to the drawing board multiple times under football and no football scenarios amongst other things.

My kids want FSU or the U. of Miami.

I have to push them to consider other options just to be sure.

But, what the heck, if I save a fortune and send them where they want, it can’t be wrong.

SlitheyTove · November 3, 2010, 6:58pm

Delighted that you’ve found the right path for your own kids. Just about every parent here on College Confidential is trying to do the same by their own kids. For many of us, that means a four year school from the get-go. We (and our kids) have done the research, read the websites full of student comments, toured the schools with our children, picked the brains of other parents. We’ve learned about schools we’d never heard of before, and we’ve considered many many options, including two year schools. The due diligence has been done; at this point, it’s up to the individual students and family.

That’s D1. I’m not paying for her to do spring break in the Bahamas, though she has gone there on a research fellowship, for free. She wasn’t drinking or partying, but to say she had fun is like saying that the Mona Lisa is a nice painting. She wants schools that will offer her opportunities she simply won’t be able to get at our local CC. That’s what works for her and our family.

ACCecil · November 3, 2010, 7:02pm

Tove,

I respect that you are sending your kids where ever they want to go as full pay (if I heard that right). That is true love right there folks :-).

I will make sure my kids aren’t losing anything and keep in mind…I am planning on supporting my kids long after college. Some folks put all their eggs into college. No problem. I hope to one day make a dent in that first home for my kids and then walking into the place with them and saying…“hey, I told you hard work pays off.”

mom60 · November 3, 2010, 7:36pm

Our local CC is supposed to be great. They send a large number of students on to 4 yr schools. It is a popular choice for many local HS grads of various academic levels and I think getting more popular in this economy. From people who work at our local CC the opinion is the quality of teaching is good and for the motivated student it is a good place. Even for those less motivated it at least saves them some money even if it takes them 3 or 4 yrs to transfer.
Both of my older children wanted 4 yr schools and we were prepared to pay for them. My youngest is a HS Jr taking classes through dual enrollment at the CC. She is not sure she wants to go away in 2 yrs. For her the CC might be an option if she is not ready to leave home. Academically she will be ready but socially and emotionally she might not be. At this point I am not pushing her to identify 4 yr options. She is fairly positive she does not want the dorm experience. I don’t see her changing her mind. Right now she is proceeding with preparing for the SAT and taking courses that make her competitive for a 4 yr school but keeping an open mind.

BfloGal · November 4, 2010, 2:29pm

“If I offered them a choice between community college for two years plus a truck or a down payment on a house and 4 years at an Ivy League or a Patriot League School , they would look at me as if I were insane. They would take the 4 year college. If they didn’t, quite seriously, I’d feel like a complete failure as a parent.”

I guess my husband and I are failures. I’m pretty sure our S1 (HS junior) would jump at the chance for a free truck and matriculation at a 2-yr, rather than heading to a top 4-yr. But that’s him-- he’s not top-school material. So, why does that make us failures as parents? Oh, and did I mention my H and I both have PhDs? Believe me, we value education.

memake · November 4, 2010, 2:47pm

ACCecil – you’re deep analysis of the pros and cons of CC is lacking a few dimensions. Although I’m guessing I live within 10 miles of you, in my community there is no such thing as a CC with a good reputation, if by ‘good’ you mean ‘equivalent to a pretty-good 4-yr college’. There are people who have gone to a CC for special, specific reasons - kids who are not emotionally ready to leave home, kids who were so lazy/uncomitted as h.s. students that they failed to gain admission to any reasonable 4-yr, adults who are filling in educational gaps. But as a general rule, in my slice of Florida, parents without huge financial problems don’t consider CC for kids who are doing well in school and are mature.

For my own kids, CC is not an option at least partly because they don’t really have two years worth of ‘gen ed’ requirements to fulfill - they do enough APs and IBs in high school that if they went to UF or UCF they would graduate in 3 years or less. At the colleges they go to, these AP/IB credits don’t significantly shorten their programs. Everybody has them, everybody does 4 years or so of academic work beyond that level. You want to argue that the education they’re getting is not better than that of a kid who follows the CC –> UCF route because their entry-level wage at an accounting firm would be the same? I would say that there’s a lot more to life than entry-level wage. Now you’re going to tell me that my kids don’t have a life — I’d say they have as much of one as they want, and the three are pretty different in their tastes, but I’m pretty sure going to a CC would not contribute to their social lives.

Measuring the quality of academics at a school is more complicated than comparing the quality of the teaching staff. Class size matters, and as you have pointed out, most gen ed classes at UCF, for example, are very large. (This is not a point in UCF’s favor of course). Something else that matters a great deal is the academic engagement of the kids around you. This factor doesn’t sound like a winner at CC’s from your descriptions of your students. In the college life I wish for my kids, they learn a lot from the students around them, both in their classes and in their residences. I also wish for them to meet and work with teachers and adults who have an academic life beyond teaching gen-ed classes.

Buying my kids a car or a truck does not really enter into my plans, although if one of them needed a car, somehow or other we’d help them find some used (yet safe) p.o.s. to get them around. Frankly, the whole ‘truck’ idea sounds like a bribe or a toy - my kids would be insulted if I offered them a vehicle in exchange for going to a cheaper school (assuming they preferred a private school on academic grounds).

Your kids aren’t mine, and their tastes and plans might be different. Have you tried visiting schools with them? Even fairly close to home, you could show them UF, UCF (including the Honors programs at both of those), USF, Stetson, U of Miami, Rollins – all to get the ball rolling on thinking about the possibilities out there. What are their high school friends planning and discussing? Your kids may not be as unknowledgeable about 4-yr schools and living at residential colleges as you think.

Good luck.

ACCecil · November 4, 2010, 3:06pm

Some parents here are focused on helping their kids get through college. Other parents here are taking a much longer (multi-generational) view of how to help our kids succeed.

My dad helped me get ahead. My dad helped me get farther in life than he did. I am going to do the same for my two kids. I will then hope they do the same for thier kids.

I am pretty sure that the poster who said that simply meant that her kids value education more than other material things such as trucks, real estate, stock funds, etc.

Some folks think that if they help the kids through college it is up to the kids to do the rest. That makes sense too. Of course, if you’ve read this thread, you’ll notice that there is considerable difference of opinion as to which is the best way to accomplish the first two years of college.

I’ll put it to you this way.

Unless you are getting big time merit aid that you will lose if you go to a CC, it is clearly, significantly, cheaper to go to a CC for the first two years. If you are worried about getting stuck at a CC for the rest of your life don’t. Study and you will be fine. Don’t let the lame behavior of others drag you down. Get involved in your classes and clubs and do your thing. You can be a leader at a CC just like you can at a 4-year school.

If the experience is so much better going away to a 4-year school then yes you should do it but if I am not mistaken at many 4-year PUBLIC schools the first two year experience isn’t all that great. So, if it is clse the CC should win just purely based on economics. The experience MIGHT be better at a private but even after FA it will cost $20K to $25 compared to peanuts.

For some folks that really doesn’t matter. Maybe they live near really bad CC’s. Maybe they really are snobbish about where people go to school. Again, most employers really don’t care. They will not pay you more. Most students seem to have picked up on that fact. The smart students will excel in a CC and then end up at the same 4-year and graduate school that they had intended on all along. At least that is what is happening down here in FL.

jonri · November 4, 2010, 3:09pm

BfloGal,

Please don’t twist my words. I didn’t call anyone else a failure as a parent. I said if I had a kid who had an acceptance to an Ivy or Patriot League school in hand, and I gave him the choice between attending it for 4 years or staying at home and going to community college for the first two years and getting a truck, I would be upset if he opted for CC and the truck. These are MY values. I don’t care if yours are different.

In any event, you imply that your S couldn’t get into a top college. If that’s the case, then that’s an entirely different scenario. ACC’s posts imply that his S would have a decent shot at Princeton and would probably be admitted to Wake Forest, Davidson, Lehigh, etc. Instead of going to one of those schools ACC’s son is going to live at home and go to CC instead . ACC sees the choice of a CC in these circumstances as a “no brainer.” I disagreed.

Do you think that it’s a “no brainer” for someone who IS “top school material” to go to CC instead? That’s the question my post was discussing.

I was typing as ACC was doing so. He says:

Thanks, ACC, you’re right. That’s what I meant.

ACCecil · November 4, 2010, 3:26pm

memake,

It is pretty obvious that we both live in Orlando, FL and that you have some connection to UCF (probably faculty) and I have alreadt stated on multiple threads I work at Valencia CC.

I’m not sure how many students Valencia has at the 3 major campuses we have (with 2 more on the drawing board). But it is well over 40K and maybe 50K and the Valencia grads in Central Florida are numerous including the mayor Richard Crotty. I won’t debate that there are no CC’s with good reps in Central FL because the market (50K students and growing) has already weighed in on that one.

It seems to me that some folks reading this thread have made up their minds. CC’s are bad. CC’s are full of lame students. If my sons or daughters want a great education they have to get into a school that makes my friends go “wow.” That is okay with me. Maybe their sons are daughters want to one day be nominated to the Supreme Court or be CEO’s. They might need to go to the best schools in the land to get that done.

For many other folks a CC does a pretty good job in years one and two and it isn’t just for the kids that need remedial work which, I hate to say it, is a shocking number these days coming out of high school. Good and great students can get what they need at a CC too.

I am afraid I didn’t understand some parts of your post memake. For example, the part about the there being more to life than the entry level wage. I’ll read it again.

The part of your post about getting kids into a good academic environment – well are you arguing that the first two years in the dorms at UF, FSU or UCF is better than the learning environment at a CC? Are you serious? I might need some time to reflect on that. I get a bunch of UCF students and from what I am hearing, and have heard for a long, long time, you might be seriously inflating how good the first two years at a public U is. I mean, seriously, inflating.

ACCecil · November 4, 2010, 3:33pm

memake:

Just read your post again and it seems we just disagree on one central point. Can a good or great student get a challenging acadmic enviroment at a CC or not? I say yes without a doubt. I am not worried in the slightest that my kids will not find what they need at a CC.

You, and others like Jonri, perhaps disagree about that.

You know, there is some poor behavior at expensive private and gigantic under funded public schools too. But let’s just pretend there isn’t okay?

SlitheyTove · November 4, 2010, 4:13pm

Maybe that’s what you see at public schools in Florida, but it’s certainly not true at many many other public schools. California, Michigan, Wisconsin, Virgina, Oregon, Washington, Texas: the list goes on and on. If money is an issue, students who have high stats and/or are National Merit Finalists can get free rides to a number of four year public schools even if they are OOS. There are posters here on CC who rave about the experiences their children are having at Alabama and Oklahoma and Pitt, among others. There are going to be unhappy students at all of these schools–but there are many many others who are delighted with their first two years.

Yet earlier you wrote

So, now when you ask

I don’t get where you are coming from.

mom60 · November 4, 2010, 4:26pm

My D would probably trade 2 yrs at home and a CC for a $60,000 -80,000 horse. That is not an option. We aren’t against 2 yrs for her at the CC if that is the best place for her but we are not willing to trade dollar for dollar in savings.

ACCecil · November 4, 2010, 4:39pm

Tove,

Very fair question.

The first 2-year experience at a CC generally means classes of 20-25 with a teacher who meets the minumum credentials of an accrediting agency and who probably beat out 100+ other people to get the job. That teacher is then evaluated administratively and by the students and generally battle tested. That teacher is probably FT if it is a day class but could be an adjunct if it is a night class. The min cred is generally a masters in the field and to get the job the teacher will have plenty of real world experience.

The student almost always lives at home, although they might live in apartment, and more often than night works while going to school. The student might not have a major yet. The student might have completed remedial work but then again might not have. Motivation levels vary widely. When the student isn’t in class they are probably at work or at home. Weekend and free time is used to party and what not as well.

Now lets compare to what happens at a big public. The experience at a smaller private is probably different to what I will describe below.

The student is away from home for the first time. The student lives in a dorm with a bunch of other students. Some are serious about their educations, as freshman, some are not. The classes might be taught by a PhD who is an expert is his or her field but it certainly might be a TA. When the student is not in class they will be hanging out with other students. Some of that time will be at football games and some will be used for leadership and partying in some cases much like the CC student.

There will be tempatations and bad decisions made by students at CC’s and 4-year public schools. I can see plusses and minuses in both environments for students.

I have some great students in my classes as well as students who need almost constant reminders that this is an academic environment. I do not teach honors classes. I teach high enrollment front door classes. I am on the front lines. If my kids go here I will expect them to be the students in classes like mine who do everything right and honestly pay no attention to the students who give cluelessness a new level of absudity.

The same thing happens at publics when the student is away from home for the first time. Some get it done and others get sidetracked. My overal contention is that the great and good students rise to the top in both environments. I do not buy into the theory that the bad students will suck down the good ones. The cream rises to the top.

I admit that being around A+ high achievers is a good thing. I hope that clarifies where I am coming from. I manage to get things done with MOST (but not all) of my students.

ACCecil · November 4, 2010, 4:57pm

Tove,

I forgot to add:

Students away from home don’t always read the book either.

Students away from home don’t always come to class prepared to learn either.

What I’ve found to be true is that a student gets out of an education a lot more than they put in.

Neither of my kids will be able to get into Princeton. Scratch that off the list. They probably can’t get into to Davidson either. But Lehigh and Wake, yes, if we go that way. My oldest son has been on college tours.

I think its ahuge ++++ to go to school and be around high achievers. I went away to school. But I waited until I was a junior to do it. What I am trying to say is this: for parents like me – if we send our kids to a CC we make sure they study hard and get good teachers and ignore the kids who aren’t putting in their best efforts.

We then TF our kids to where they want to go to finish off the 4-year degree.

martina99 · November 4, 2010, 5:09pm

The local CC was not an option for my S. He is an engineering major (but may switch out) and has AP credit for Chem & Physics. The only classes he could have taken at the CC would be general ed. As a freshman at the public flagship, he is taking more advanced courses than were available at the CC.

If he switches majors and needs to make up time to graduate in four years, he may take general ed classes at the CC over the summer.

BfloGal · November 4, 2010, 5:27pm

jonri, no mal intent, it’s just that the section of your post I quoted struck a raw nerve. Our S1 is quite capable of pulling grades that will get him into a decent 4-yr school. He just doesn’t put in the effort, and has organizational problems. We’ve tried everything-- private tutors, learning centers, one yr of private high school, clinical psychologists, therapists, punishing, rewarding, you name it. Nothing has worked, and I’ve concluded this is because he just doesn’t yet have the maturity to see how his lack of motivation and effort will effect him and his opportunities down the road. Unless he makes a quantum leap in maturation this year, and gets at least a 3.5 both semesters, he’s going to a CC.

S2 (HS freshman) is a different story. Highly motivated, straight A student. He’s going places. I guess my point is, if we had only S1, I would indeed feel like a failure as a parent. If we had only S2, I’d feel like the best parent in the world. But we have both, so my conclusion is it’s a lot more than parenting-- it’s DNA.

Regarding your comment about it being a no-brainer to dismiss a CC if you’re a top student and can get into a top 4-yr school-- I disagree. I know of one student (female) from my area who got into Harvard. Instead, she decided to stay at home and go to our local CC. Crazy? On the surface, yes. But if she’s bright enough to get into Harvard, I’m sure her reasons were sound. I think the decision for many people whether to go to a 4-yr or a CC has to do not with money or grades, but with readiness. My S1-- definitely not ready. My S2-- he’s halfway out the door to a 4-yr already, even though he’s only in 9th grade.

memake · November 4, 2010, 5:29pm

ACCecil - I agree that Florida’s public universities are not, overall, centers of academic rigor. Nonetheless, there are engaged, intellectually curious students - maybe more of them in the Honors Colleges, or more of them in some majors than others. It might take a lot of looking, but I believe groups like that do exist. I don’t have any reason to believe groups like that exist at CCs. (I’m sure there are individuals, but again, not groups.)

For all your claims to the contrary, the smart kids as conventionally defined in fact don’t flock to the CC option, even in Florida. The tuition differential is about $2000 / yr. It seems to me that even UCF, let alone UF or FSU, offer $2000 worth of benefit beyond what a CC offers, to a kid who is at an academic level to be thinking of Lehigh.

I certainly agree that plenty of kids at 4-yr institutions are immature, make lousy choices, and waste their (and their parents’) tuition money. I guess the time to worry about your kid becoming one of those kids is while they are still in high school. You kind of have to read the writing on the wall… In fact, a trajectory I have seen a few times, both on College Confidential and in real life, is for a kid to go away to college, flunk out or come close to it, and then transfer to a CC to rebuild credibility with the parents and to salvage some GPA. Again, it doesn’t sound like it’s worth the $2000 savings in tuition to start your kids’ college career there, all else being equal.

I do feel like I’m beating the ole’ dead horse here, so I’ll stop. Aren’t you going to take your kids on some college visits? It just doesn’t sound like the money difference is so great, especially if they have Bright Futures.

memake · November 4, 2010, 5:35pm

Hey I just said I’d stop writing about this and here I am back already. I caught up on the many posts written while I was (obvi too slowly) writing my previous.

ACCecil - it’s not such a cinch to transfer from a CC to a selective private college. If you think Lehigh or Wake are options, it is probably much easier to get in as a Freshman. As to the point about wanting to be around to supervise the kids during their first 2 yrs of college- in my experience which is limited to kids who do not go off the deep end, but who are not always 100% putting out their best effort - they do learn as they go along to moderate the bad behavior and focus on the goal. But it all depends on your kid, and there are no guarantees.

Again, good luck.

ACCecil · November 4, 2010, 5:54pm

memake,

Thanks for posting on this thread. Your points of view has made it a much more informative thread for whomever is reading it.

Rather than give you a long point by point reply I’ll just say that it is my opinion you are vastly overrating the experience in the first two years of college at a public and/or vastly underrating how good Valencia is for a GOOD or GREAT student.

The tuition differential for FL in-state students is about $3,000 per year. But you either intentionally or unintentionally left out a whole bunch of other costs of going away to school that can be avoided by staying home probably to make your point. Again, the end result is the same. You end up at the same 4-year school and grad school you wanted all along in most cases, although, I agree with you that TF’ing from a CC to a great private isn’t a “cinch.”

It isn’t all that hard either.

It might be hard for that guy in the back row who can’t seem to stay awake but that guy isn’t going to be the profile of either of my kids.

Yes, the kids who go away to college and flunk out end up in CC’s. They rebuild themselves and in many cases are solid contributors in class. Your view that CC’s are only for the rejects and flunk outs is a very narrow view.

Good luck to you too.

jonri · November 4, 2010, 6:25pm

I guess I should disclose that my offspring are grown. I know the outcome of the decisions I made.

If I were ACC, I wouldn’t want to send a boy like his S to either a CC or a big state U–unless he were in the honors program and it was a good one. I’d be disappointed that my S wasn’t enthused about going to a school like Davidson and doing some intensive reading and writing. I’d be disappointed that his attitude seems to be that he only wants to go to college to get a job. Obviously, I do know that ACC disagrees with me, but I’m “speaking” for myself…

College isn’t, or at least shouldn’t be, like that old board game Life, where you go around the board, pick up enough credits, get the degree and move on. It’s four years of your life–make something of it and of yourself. If it’s a choice between doing a lot more writing or playing a lot more beer pong–you’ll do some of both at most colleges–I’d rather have my kid do more writing.

And, then, there’s all those ECs. IMO, the biggest difference between big state U and smaller colleges (Including those rare public LACs) is the percentage of students who participate in ECs, or rather ECs other than Greek life. At smaller schools, student put out the campus paper; at big state U, it tends to be the journalism majors who do. At big state U, it’s usually the kids majoring in drama who are in plays or at the very least, you have to be extraordinary to get a part. It’s hard to get into a dance troupe or the marching band. These activities are usually so time intensive few people do more than one.

At smaller schools, it’s easier to get to be on the paper, or in marching band, or to get a part in the play or be an RA. And, a lot of what I view as the best part of college happens in those ECs.

So, I would not limit myself to taking my S on college tours. I’d find someone at Wake or another school who could take him around. Have him sit in on several classes, have him go to some ECs, attend some sporting events…and especially go to parties. Have him talk to as many students as he can, not just tour guides.

I’d also take him to FSU, but I’d try to find someone in the honors program who will take him around. Then I’d have him go to regular classes too. I’d have my fingers and toes crossed hoping that he’d see the difference.

The bottom line is that I’d pay more money, if necessary, if I could get him to go to a college where I thought he’d get a better education. I think that’s more important than a truck or a down payment on a house years from now.

I checked and FSU does have an honors program, with classes limited to 25 students and seminars to 15. It has an honors dorm too–might not be as loud and noisy, though I really don’t know. Unless ACC’s son is immature for his age–and even if he is, a lot of kids mature a lot during junior year and the summer before senior year–I’d push for that rather than a CC.

Good luck with the choices your Ss and you make, ACC. Obviously, it’s your family’s choice, not mine. But to me, the choice you are making is far from a “no brainer.”

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