<p>At the two CC’s I teach at (one tenured, one adjunct) course cancellations are not rampant. My D and S’s profs at elite LAC’s cancelled just as frequently. At the adjunct institution I am docked pay if I cancel more than once. Believe me, that’s a true negative incentive for the entire adjunct teaching force.</p>
<p>This past weekend I had the CC conversation with one of my sisters. Our CC [Montgomery</a> College](<a href=“http://www.montgomerycollege.edu%5DMontgomery”>http://www.montgomerycollege.edu) is one that does indeed offer honors programs, excellent internship opportunities, good transfer counseling, etc. etc. etc. Everyone in the CC “business” appears to have heard of it. The CCs that my niece has within ready commuting distance are not quite of the same calibre. Her home state (Iowa) does have at least one [Kirkwood</a> Community College - Cedar Rapids, Iowa](<a href=“http://www.kirkwood.edu/]Kirkwood”>http://www.kirkwood.edu/) that has a national reputation, but is too far away for commuting so would mean the added expense of renting an apartment. Through no particular fault of her own, my niece’s options just aren’t the same as Happykid’s. In academics, as in real estate, geography can be everything.</p>
<p>A friend of mine had a son who received a degree at a cc, then transferred into a larger state university for the engineering program. My S is a freshman at that University this year - so both going in for the first time…</p>
<p>From our perspective, her son did NOT get the same welcome that mine did. They did not get info in the mail, their summer welcome for transfer students was one afternoon, ours was 2 days. We had tons of emails, phone calls, & mail in general - they got nothing.</p>
<p>As far as fitting in and making campus your home, my son has had tons of opportunity. Special activities like a midnight BBQ, dorm gatherings, a lot of chances to meet other students. He loves it and is very involved.</p>
<p>Her son, didn’t know about the activites and isn’t very happy. He doesn’t really have any new friends, just a couple he knew from our town.</p>
<p>Maybe other colleges/universities do a better job of integrating transfer students, but ours did not. He is sorry that he went to CC and transferred - he wishes he’d just gone to the University to start with.</p>
<p>My S1 went this route: 2 years CC, transfer to 4-year school. It was not the original plan, but it worked out to be the best thing that could have happened to him. He was a mediocre student in HS who did not test well - low SATs. He applied to one college, a military college (not a service academy), but ended up resigning his commission within the first 48 hours. </p>
<p>I brought a shattered kid home from military college. I told him he could “lick his wounds” for a day, then I registered him at CC. I will be forever grateful to the academic dean who looked a broken kid in the eye and said, “Son, I know you will do well here.” And he did: S1 worked hard and began to succeed. He juggled an almost-full time job with a full CC course schedule and got the first A’s in his life. He took full responsibility for his CC courses and made sure that he completed all the required courses to transfer. I never did another thing, other than pay the tuition bills. S1 finished his Associate’s degree with honors and used our state’s general articulation agreement (GAA) to transfer to a top 4-year school. It was NOT a school he would have been accepted into with his mediocre HS records. But CC gave him the opportunity to mature & learn how to manage his time.</p>
<p>He just graduated from the 4-year school in May & started a good job at a well-known company. I am very proud of him.</p>
<p>Is CC to 4-yr college right for everyone? NO - my S2 is going a different route. And there are some down sides to going this route. Are there slackers at CC? Of course - but then, there are also kids who party their way out of 4-year schools too. The bottom line is that an education is what you make of it.</p>
<p>In our area, there are thousands of kids who go to comunity college for two years and then transfer to the state university. They get their degree from the state u. - nobody cares about the first two years. There is no “snickering.”</p>
<p>The state u, requires freshman to live in the dorm. In this economy, many, many families do not have the money for that. Tuition has gone up over 40% in the past six years - a lot more than inflation. Many families do not have the money and cannot fathom that kind of debt. CC + transfer is the only answer for many middle-class families.</p>
<p>It’s good for some kids, not for others.</p>
<p>Often, there is a substantial financial savings – and for many families, that’s crucially important. CCs also offer smaller classes in introductory courses than you will find at many state universities.</p>
<p>On the other hand:</p>
<p>Kids drop in and out of community colleges very casually. I would hesitate to put a kid into an environment where this happens, especially if the goal is a 4-year degree.</p>
<p>There often is less opportunity to make friends at community colleges because they are commuter schools.</p>
<p>Students at community colleges often live more in the community than at college. They usually have jobs, and those jobs usually are off campus. They may find it easier to make friends at work than at school and therefore may identify more with work than school. This can lead to a greater and greater commitment to their jobs and a decreasing commitment to college, especially if many of their colleagues do not (or did not) go to college. I have seen kids who entered a CC with a commitment to get a four-year degree drift slowly out of college and eventually drop out without even getting an associate’s degree – and it just sort of happened. It wasn’t intentional.</p>
<p>Not all programs for transfer to 4-year colleges work well; it’s important to check out the specific one your student is interested in.</p>
<p>"From our perspective, her son did NOT get the same welcome that mine did. They did not get info in the mail, their summer welcome for transfer students was one afternoon, ours was 2 days. We had tons of emails, phone calls, & mail in general - they got nothing.</p>
<p>As far as fitting in and making campus your home, my son has had tons of opportunity. Special activities like a midnight BBQ, dorm gatherings, a lot of chances to meet other students. He loves it and is very involved.</p>
<p>Her son, didn’t know about the activites and isn’t very happy. He doesn’t really have any new friends, just a couple he knew from our town."</p>
<p>This is true at my school, too. Transfer students are the very bottom of the totem pole and it is very obvious. I felt really unwanted when I first got here and the other transfers I meet say similar things. However, I wouldn’t have been able to come here, from a financial or an academic standpoint, had I not started at CC and it is certainly worth it. I think I was much better prepared for the work level here than I would have been before and than most of the incoming freshmen I meet. So that is a potential trade off one must consider. As opposed to a freshman student where things are set up and scaffolded to help the student acclimate, as a transfer you are expected to hit the ground running, academically and socially, and perhaps without being given the tools to do so. The self-direction skills you have the opportunity to learn at a CC serve you well in that, but not everybody is prepared for that rigorous of an experience. It is a major test of your self-confidence and your ability to be internally-motivated, you won’t succeed socially or academically unless you take a “wont-take-no-for-an-answer” kind of attitude and really reach for it. CC really gives you the opportunity to be prepared for that, but it is still a challenge to transfer those skills to a university. It’s definitely not easy. Just sometimes it’s worth it.</p>
<p>I can understand that a CC may be someone’s best option. </p>
<p>But our OP states that he makes a good salary. He also says that his kids are smart. He’s been looking at schools like Lehigh, Wake Forest and Elon. If his kids can get into these colleges and he can afford to pay for it, then I don’t think the local CC and living at home with mom & dad is likely to be the best option for the first two years. </p>
<p>I admit I’m a snob about education. I also admit that as a NYC resident, I may have an unusual view because CUNY offers an affordable education for kids who live at home. </p>
<p>It’s just that for most kids, part of the college experience is going away, coping on their own, starting over on a social life, making friends from different backgrounds,maybe challenging their families’ attitudes about religion, politics, etc.</p>
<p>Yes, the kid who goes to a CC and then transfers will have part of the experience as a junior. But I think it’s harder to fit in as a junior and it’s harder to get those lab experiences and the EC leadership experiences as a junior. I would think it would be harder to get to know profs well enough to have them write good recs for you too. </p>
<p>In other words, while I understand that there can be restraints such as money or family responsibilities or a student’s immaturity that make CCs the best option for individual students, it sure doesn’t sound to me as if it’s the best option for the OP’s son.</p>
<p>The OP might be a bit hasty. If the goal is to save money, then the parent is perfectly within his/her rights to say that they will pay $X towards college. In the OP’s case, that might mean two years of CC + two years of public. A bright smart kid could then look to find a private college which offers enough merit aid to make up the difference.</p>
<p>Better for everyone to have these expectations up front.</p>
<p>Oh, I agree that any parent has the right to say I shall pay X dollars for your education and leave it to the kid to figure out how to pay for the balance. </p>
<p>But I don’t get the impression that’s what’s going on here. Read the first paragraph of the first post. It’s not just that dad wants to save $–though it’s obvious that he does. He also wants the kid to live at home. Now in a particular case, that may be wise. But usually? As a benefit of community college? No.</p>
<p>Every kid I know around here who is going to community college has moved out. They’re living in apartments, not at home. If money was especially tight, then I’m sure they’d stay home, though then there are commuting costs and parking fees.</p>
<p>Looking back at that first post, I’m struck by how the OP says that he loved Elon, Wake Forest, and Lehigh. Not that his sons loved the schools, that he, the father, loved them. I wonder what the 16 year old has to say about where he’d like to go to college, what he’d like to study, and what he’d like to pursue as a career? A 16 year old doesn’t get carte blanche, but they should get to have some input into the process.</p>
<p>I would not consider a CC as an option for my kids for some very specific reasons that might not apply at all to many people on this board. First of all, my daughters are good students (although not as good as many who post on this forum) and have worked very hard to stay primarily in honors and AP classes with the goal of going to a good 4-year college. The majority of the kids in their high school who attend the two area CCs are not particularly stellar or ambitious students. Our CCs do not have an “honors college” and the the bulk of the kids in the average first year class earned Cs and Ds in high school (NYS pretty much has open enrollment at its CCs, meaning if you graduate from HS you are admitted). Sure, some hard working, even extremely bright, students take the CC route due to family circumstances, but they are in a distinct minority.</p>
<p>Secondly, we have the money to afford a more traditional four-year option so as to help our kids achieve their goal. </p>
<p>Finally, my wife and I have raised our daughters to be able to take their place in the world wherever their interests, talents and abilities take them. That will probably not be in small town Upstate NY and that is fine by us. I know quite a few parents who think differently and who, like the OP, want his kids not only to attend college at home, but who wants them to remain in their hometown for the rest of their lives. That might work out just fine for those families, but not for ours. Would we feel like we had failed if one of our kids wanted to go to CC for 2 years, then off to a 4-year school? In all honesty, yes, but we’d try not to let on.</p>
<p>Loving this thread, as I am in the midst of accepting the probability that S1 will go to the local CC instead of a 4-yr school. Our local CC is great-- lovely campus and good teachers-- but overloaded with students. If he goes there, he will likely have to take a class or 2 in the summer to finish in the magical 2 years.</p>
<p>His reasons for potentially going there are not fiscal. Unfortunately he is one of those slacker HS students who is not very motivated, despite having the brains to do well. He lives for today, with no thoughts about the future, and no real goals. I worry that even CC will be a stretch for him. And I feel sad for him-- unless he kicks it into gear this yr (he’s a jr) he may not get to live the “real college experience,” and he doesn’t even realize that.</p>
<p>I keep thinking of my friend’s son who finished at that CC this past spring. He was a worse slacker in HS than my S and ended up going to an alternative HS for his jr year and half of senior year because his grades were so low. After HS he spent 2 yrs at the CC, got his act together there, and lo and behold he’s now a freshman at UCLA!</p>
<p>I just want to correct an error that has appeared a few times in this thread: about 48% of UCF undergrads started their undergarduate careers at CC, not 80%. </p>
<p>Also, the newly established State Colleges will undoubtedly have some future impact on those numbers. </p>
<p>Relative to the Northeast, it is much more socially acceptable to start one’s education at a CC in Florida; there are many factors that contribute to this. One: in-state tuition is ungodly cheap. Therefore, competition for places in the State University System colleges is relatively intense. Relatively few high-school seniors in Florida are interested in applying to private schools as the tuition difference is pretty stark (about $4000 per year compared to $28,000 AVG for privates). As fast as UCF has managed to grow, it’s still not big enough to take them all. Also, to be fair, some of the CC’s in the State are highly rated, and the State does seem to invest in them, certainly compared to the Northeast. I don’t know how they are ranked, but Valencia, for example, is considered to be in the top 10 nationally.</p>
<p>I just want to correct an error that has appeared a few times in this thread: about 48% of UCF undergrads started their undergarduate careers at CC, not 80%. </p>
<p>Also, the newly established State Colleges will undoubtedly have some future impact on those numbers. </p>
<p>Relative to the Northeast, it is much more socially acceptable to start one’s education at a CC in Florida; there are many factors that contribute to this. One: in-state tuition is ungodly cheap. Therefore, competition for places in the State University System colleges is relatively intense. Relatively few high-school seniors in Florida are interested in applying to private schools as the tuition difference is pretty stark (about $4000 per year compared to $28,000 AVG for privates). As fast as UCF has managed to grow, it’s still not big enough to take them all. Also, to be fair, some of the CC’s in the State are highly rated, and the State does seem to invest in them, certainly compared to the Northeast. I don’t know how they are ranked, but Valencia, for example, is considered to be in the top 10 nationally.</p>
<p>If you live near a CC that has a good reputation in your community you would be foolish not to consider it especially if the reason is because of snobbery or unfounded social stigmas. When ER’s start paying more based on where you got the first two years of education, the general ed and liberal arts part, then, perhaps, we can talk. But since ER’s do not do that you have to look at value and return on investment. </p>
<p>Thanks for the correction memake. I should have said about 80% of Valencia’s students end up at UCF not that 80% of UCF’s students come from a CC. Those are two different statements. Regardless of what % ends up at UCF, Valencia feeds UCF just like Maricopia CC in Phoenix feeds Azizona State U. </p>
<p>Parent & Future College Students:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If you live near a CC go look at the campus. Take a tour guided or not. </p></li>
<li><p>Go to the student services building. Find out how many clubs and organizations and EC activites are available. </p></li>
<li><p>Determine what the 1st two years are like at the public and private U’s near you. </p></li>
<li><p>Talk to counselors and guidance people and evaluate how many credits will likely transfer if you know what you want to major in. </p></li>
<li><p>Look at the $$$$$ differential. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I obviously can’t speak for some areas of the country but from where I am sitting it is a no-brainer, no pun intended, to go CC first. I am not even worried about money. My oldest and closest to college son is on track to get a Bright Futures scholarship and I have fully funded 529 plans for both my kids. Any moeny I save on the first two years of college can be used for other things such as buying them a truck or sending them abroad to study for a few sessions or graduate school or helping them buy a house once they set down roots. </p>
<p>I realize that, if we do that, my sons will miss the charm and enduring romance of “going away to school” but college isn’t summer camp and for whatever is lost far more will be gained.</p>
<p>I should add:</p>
<p>I do all the initial research for my kids then I discuss with them the various pros and cons of each alternative. So, when “I” fell in love with Lehigh I went over with my oldest why I thought it was a good fit for him. </p>
<p>There is no way he can fully understand what it means to live in a dorm or how a public has a far different experience than a private and a million other things so I do my best to break it down to them in terms they can relate too. For example, an Ivy League school, or the more realistic, Patriot League school, in their minds, initially comes off as a cold and far away place. </p>
<p>I point out that there is more to it than that.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>By whom? Ranked in what? </p>
<p>Using a quick google search, I was only able to find two recognized rankings of US community colleges. One is by the publication Community College Week. The ranking is by # of degrees awarded. It is broken down into different categories. Thus, the community college ranked #1 for nursing is the one which awarded the most AA degrees in nursing. Maybe Valencia ranks high on this list; I don’t know. The ranking does not purport to measure quality. </p>
<p>The other was by the publication Washington Monthly. No Florida CCs were in the top 10. The highest ranked was Lake City at #26. Valencia was not in the top 50.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Like what? A truck? The down payment on a house? </p>
<p>We just have different values, so I’ll never change your mind.</p>
<p>Since I raised my own offspring, they understandably have values closer to my own than to yours. (That’s what happens; most kids pick up their values from their parents.) If I offered them a choice between community college for two years plus a truck or a down payment on a house and 4 years at an Ivy League or a Patriot League School , they would look at me as if I were insane. They would take the 4 year college. If they didn’t, quite seriously, I’d feel like a complete failure as a parent. </p>
<p>Now, again, there may be cases where there are very, very valid reasons for living at home and going to a CC. But to suggest that EVERY kid should do this is a huge mistake, IMO. Obviously, YMMV…and does. But again, IMO, most kids who can get into an Ivy League or Patriot League school should go to a 4 year college. Perhaps, in some circumstances, they should choose a cheaper 4 year college. But a CC? I don’t think so. </p>
<p>They’ll buy any motor vehicles and/or houses with their own earnings.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>ACCecil, you’ve mentioned elsewhere that you want your children to go to a school where people aren’t studying all the time. You’ve said that sounds dull and grey to you. Fair enough, that kind of atmosphere isn’t for everyone. There are students who DO covet exactly that type of college environment. They want to be somewhere where they can talk about intellectual and academic subjects at any time of day. In other words, they want to be somewhere that’s a “yes-brainer”. You may take the education of your students quite seriously, yet, as you say, it ain’t Harvard. A big part of your job is to work with students who don’t truly want to learn, or who haven’t really learned how to learn. Outside of money issues, this isn’t the right environment for the “yes-brainers”, any more than a northeastern highly academic school would be right for your students.</p>
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</p>
<p>We will be a full-pay family. We have made it clear to our children that they can go to an expensive undergrad school, or they can choose somewhere less expensive and use the balance towards grad school, starting a business, a down payment on a home, whatever. They’re not interested. If your own children choose differently, more power to them. I only suggest that it be their choice, not yours.</p>