Commuting from home to save money for future grad school, college counselor disagrees

UpperValley · October 10, 2012, 11:50am

Hi everyone. I’ve been browsing College Confidential for a while, but only now I realized there is a parents forum.

I live in Colorado and I’m a proud father of triplet sons Wonders of IVF :)

Son-1 has always been the most inclined on academics from the three and is very likely to end top 3% of his class, with a spotless (so far) A/A+ transcript and honors. Professional interest will likely require graduate school.

Son-2 used to be a B- on his freshman HS year (even got 2 Cs), but has improved much ever since and now is A. He realizes not-that-stellar grades will come to bite him at application time, but he’s making up to it with many APs and a spotless record for his junior year. Professional interest will require medical school.

Son-3 is a rather good road/mountain cyclis and is in contact with 2 cycling team coaches for two colleges, one of them in Colorado. Academically, in a fair assessment he’s a B/B+ student, but with many non-academic extracurriculars.

My own original plan to deal with their financing was like this:

<ul>
<li>establish a “default scenario” in which they apply to University of Colorado - Boulder, which is close to our home. Son 1 and Son 2 shouldn’t have any problems meeting guaranteed eligibility criteria, and I believe Son 3 would likely meet them as well - if they all keep up with their last year performance.</li>
<li>they would also apply to a safety: a community college in Denver area</li>
<li>as UC Boulder is a good 4-year university on itself, with nationwide recognition, good rankings and all, they should be in a favorable position to transfer to an out-of-state college if they decide to so after 2 years, and good grades from their freshman and sophomore years could land them additional merit-based financial aid if they go to some private institution</li>
<li>they should also try merit-based-aid colleges (Son 1 and 2) or colleges with competitive cycling scholarships (Son 3 already got some serious-ish interest from a recruiter of a Liberal Arts college with a top cycling team)</li>
<li>if they decide to go out-of-state, it should be for a college that is considerably better on academics than UC Boulder, such as an Ivy, Stanford, Caltech. We don’t want to throw in our EFC and them have them borrow heavily for an academically equivalent university.</li>
</ul>

However, our school’s college counselor (their HS has one of the highest college enrollment rates in Colorado) didn’t like much my plan when I spoke in person with her. She is adamant that my sons are “very bright” (which I take as a compliment) and that “you [me] shouldn’t limit their potential by laying out a plan that induces them to make choices based solely on money, especially as you probably can afford your EFC” (which I took as offensive).

There is also a lot of peer-pressure. Applications to big-name out-of-state schools apparently are common and going at least 2 states away from Colorado is the goal of many students. My kids were all chatty about how some college selection workshop was dedicated towards having the HS seniors do some soul-searching and find a place that appeals to them.

Right now, we are fortunate enough to have set aside, already, enough money to cover our (likely) EFC.

We live relatively close to UC-Boulder campus (disclaimer: we do not work for the university or any university contractor) on the slopes of the Rockies, less than 45 min by car. We are talking out sons about considering commuting from home if they don’t get additional merit-based scholarships. Our EFC is higher than the COA for a commuting student, but lower than the COA for a on-campus resident student. That way, if they commute instead of living on-campus, they would graduate debt-free, and we’d save on the EFC. We proposed to give them any money we save from our EFC for their graduate studies, if any.

Me and wife think we are doing our sons a favor by not making the “go out state because it is out of state and out of state is fun” an easy or “natural” choice for them. We made a huge effort as a family to set aside their college funds, looking at is as an investment on their future. We don’t want the boys to think that “since my parents have money set aside, we should borrow more because everybody borrows, so let’s find a more expensive university”.

Are we totally out of place by using our financial leverage to (heavily) influence my sons’ decisions? Am I the only parent skeptical of this “for each student there is one and only one perfect college match”? Am I being too greedy by setting our foot in not paying our (high) EFC for out state colleges where the kids would have to take 5-digit loans on top of the EFC to have education comparable to what we have in our state (but keeping the door opened for really a top school acceptance, if any)?

For those who have older children just graduated or on their final years, is on-campus residency really a life-changing experience that will affect grades, attractiveness when applying to graduate school etc?

cptofthehouse · October 10, 2012, 11:59am

I think that your GC needs a reality kick in the duff. This is the sort of thing that makes me see red.

FIrst of all, do fill outa sample EFC calculator to find out what your FAFSA EFC is going to be, rather than guessing. Then check out the NPC on schools that are on your lists.

Because your sons are very different, they could end up with different options that are the best for each of them. So when selecting schools, do take that in to consideration. However, you are absolutely right to make sure your financial and admissions bases are covered. You don’t know were they will be accepted and if they get an financial or merit aid at all.

As for your GC, it is your personal business as to how you want to spend your money, and the remark was an uncalled for, unprofessional and foolish one. To encourage some additonals schools that are more selective is one thing, but to make remarks on how people should be planining college costs is a whole other. That was not helpful at all and detrimental when that kind of attitude permeates to the kds that are being counseled by such people. No wonder some kids are getting such entitlemnt feelings about colleges. This kind of wildfire, no school or family needs where the onus is getting into expensive, private non comuuter colleges instead of looking at the whole picture and varying ones picks covering all sorts of financial and admissions scenarios.

FinanceGrad · October 10, 2012, 12:06pm

“She is adamant that my sons are “very bright” (which I take as a compliment) and that “you [me] shouldn’t limit their potential by laying out a plan that induces them to make choices based solely on money, especially as you probably can afford your EFC””

She can easily say that because she won’t be writing the check.

I think your plan is just fine. This was my experience:

Parents didn’t have any college savings or fund, but we lived in the same city as our state flagship. I recieved full-merit scholarship to the flagship, and commuted from home for the first two years. I worked to pay for extra expenses, and was able to afford to move out on my own after two years and stayed moved-out through graduate school. I graduated with $26,000 in loans which I took out to pay for graduate school tuition since there was no merit for the field I was going in.

As far as missing out, I don’t think I did. I joined several organizations my freshman year and stayed heavily involved throughout my undergrad.

cromette · October 10, 2012, 12:06pm

In general, I think HS counselors should be just that - counselors, not the final decision maker. So I’d hear what she has to say, think it over, put pencil to paper and then make decisions that are best for MY family. You have 3 going at once - not too many people can appreciate the impact of that. You are used to managing 3 at once and probably have the best idea about how that works best.

No, I don’t think you’re greedy. This is THEIR education. You have YOUR retirement. All has to be balanced and weighed. I resent other people telling me what I can afford. That’s not their decision, but mine.

UpperValley · October 10, 2012, 12:12pm

I’ve done that already, what I’m guessing is about what changes, if any, could there be for 2013-14 when they apply, and also possible changes on our personal income and assets until them, though none of that particularly very large in either direction.

Son 3 was told there is a “good chance” a Liberal Arts college with a strong cycling team might offer him a partial scholarship. While that was nice and he’s got excited, I tried to play the devils advocate (and have been doing so already for one year) that no scholarship or aid is guaranteed unless the kids already meet all eligibility criteria (when awards is automatic upon doing so) or have gotten a formal offer/letter/email stating so.

What does NCP stands for?

cptofthehouse · October 10, 2012, 12:18pm

It can cost close to $60K a year to go to a private school and dorm. Times that by three with your triplets and that by four. Even if a family can afford that kind of money, there should be no questioning as to whether looking at other cost options is not a good idea.

Do get some idea on what you could be expected to pay. A friend of mine had twins and one a year older and found that what the colleges expected the family to pay was about what the state U with room and board cost without any aid. They got a big fat zero in aid and/or awards for their kids. One did end up going to an OOS public that did cost more than the in state flagship where the other two went, and she borrowed part of the difference and the parents kicked in the rest. I think they did qualify for some need in that situation but it all came down to just subsidized Staffords. None of the schools guaranteed to meet need and none of them did. SOme of the mix and match private/public options were equivalent in cost or close, but no stand outs in savings unless they all three stayed home and commuted.

cptofthehouse · October 10, 2012, 12:24pm

It’s NPC, and it’s Net Price Calculator which a lot of colleges are including on their websites or you can google it for a specific school and they are up there on some sites. It gives you the AVERAGE cost for a given school given your financial situation. Some do ask questions about gpa and test scores and other things, but most are pretty much just into the financials. Because it is an average, it is not accurage as there may be no one who gets the average at that level, but it gives you some idea. For those schools with no merit money and that guarantee to meet 100% of need, the numbers can be pretty close since you are eliminating the “Clutter” that goes into award giving when merit within need come into play.

As for cycling, if you are looking at Division 3 schools, they are not permitted to give athletic scholarships. We found that in that situation, our one son could get into schools a notch up from what he might have achieved with this academic credentials. Preferential packaging can happen in these cases, but you won’t likely get more than money that exceeds need.

dodgersmom · October 10, 2012, 12:30pm

Be aware that merit aid is limited (quite limited!) for transfer students. Schools use merit aid to entice freshmen to attend, not transfer students . . . so this isn’t something you should count on.

Honestly, they shouldn’t borrow heavily for any university! Especially with grad school on the horizon. It’s just not worth it.

UpperValley · October 10, 2012, 12:33pm

For Colorado options I did the following:

<ul>
<li>calculated my EPC using a simulated FAFSA form (we have some special cases that make it more challenging, ans we had a consultation with a private financial adviser on that - best US$ 200 I ever spent). </li>
<li>checked in detail all tuition and fees information, and simulated a “worst case scenario” where each one only got the Colorado Opportunity Fund (eligibility criteria from official website: “Undergraduate students enrolled at state colleges and universities are eligible if they are classified as in-state students for tuition purposes.”) and the standard reduced tuition for in-state residents.</li>
<li>assumed any difference between the COA and EFC would be covered by federal loans.</li>
</ul>

Our EFC > COA if the student commutes, but EFC < COA if they live on-campus. Hence the idea they can graduate debt-free if commuting.

===============

As for private colleges, I was reading some “promise to meed demonstrated need” posted on some websites. I even contacted a couple selective expensive colleges. Apparently, some of them don’t consider, necessarily, all (COA - EFC) as “demonstrated need” and some have their own criteria as what is “demonstrated need” to fulfill their guaranteed aid. But those East Cost colleges are very long shots for my sons anyway.

UpperValley · October 10, 2012, 12:39pm

The school in question is Fort Lewis College. I’m not fully aware (getting a crash course on that myself ) about this whole NCAA division thing when it comes to financial aid. In any case, Fort Lewis website says they are “USA Cycling Division 1 for Cycling”

fieldsports · October 10, 2012, 12:43pm

OP, you have thought this through better than 99.9% of the people the GC talks with. Most of them do not lay their cards on the table for her, financially. Many adults, perhaps including your GC, do not understand personal finance and retirement planning well enough to advise others. I always feel that the assessment of what the family can pay (if the family can pay much at all) must begin with the parents’ long-term assessment of their own finances. It is not selfish; it is responsible.

You are also giving your sons a gift beyond their years to work it out for them to graduate debt-free. May they never be forced to realize what a huge difference that will make in their lives.

Boulder is a fabulous school. I recently accompanied a relative to an appointment with a highly-regarded specialist at Columbia Presbyterian in NYC. The doctor asked us for permission to let a first year Columbia med student sit in on the consult. We granted permission and chatted a bit with the med student, who was new to NYC from growing up, and going through undergrad, in BOULDER.

I have found that some of our HS GCs get flustered when the topic of money comes up. They are no help with making judgments about it. Your EFC is not a thoughtful, considered measure of what you can truly afford to pay, in the context of your overall life. It’s more of a ranking about where you stand in line, nationally, for need-based money.

Even if one does have $300,000 per kid laying around after taxes (which is what it might take at some private schools, with cost increases, maybe a change in major, not finishing in 8 semesters, special summer program opportunities, etc.) – it’s not necessarily the best thing for the kids, or ourselves, to spend it that way. What about being more assured of parental solvency in retirement? Or being able to help the kids with grad school, with their weddings, when they buy houses, when they set up a professional practice of their own, or with their kids? Or even, by being on less of a tight budget for undergrad, being able to allow the kid to take a poorly-paying academic research internship over the summer, instead of being financially forced to bartend full time?

College is not a vacation, and GCs are not travel agents. So many people assume without thinking that private is better than public, and out of state is better than in-state. In our town, the school publishes a list in the newspaper every spring, of where each kid is going. The biggest advertisers in the local newspaper are the realtors. The school district and the local newspaper work together to keep the district’s appearances up, which keeps house prices up and keeps taxes up. There may be some pressure to steer kids toward schools with names that will increase the “ooh and aah” factor on the list. It’s not all about what’s best for each kid. There’s never a list in the paper, six years later, of which kids are enslaved by debt and rueful about the choices they were steered toward.

blossom · October 10, 2012, 12:54pm

OP- I agree with your approach but will make a suggestion- take grad school out of the equation for now. I know dozens (probably more) of families who made sub-optimal college choices based on their kids alleged grad school plans-- and to be frank, you are dealing with 17 year old boys, not exactly the best long term planner/predictors among our species!

Kids want to be doctors- until they take organic chemistry. Kids want to be lawyers- until they take their first urban planning class. Kids want to be engineers until the first year Materials Science class kicks their rumps.

You don’t know; they don’t know; it’s fun to think that you are going to be able to help with grad school but frankly, that’s so far out there that it’s not worth having as a decision item on the flow chart.

Here’s what people with HS kids don’t know about grad school:
1- kids work for several years and their employer then pays for grad school if they return once they’ve completed their degree.
2- kids work for several years full time and go to grad school at night, employer pays as long as some minimum GPA is maintained.
3- kids win fellowships, get fully funded doctorates; the US government pays for med school in exchange for working in an under-served part of the country
4- kids find a job they love, work at it for a decade, then go to grad school on their own dime.
5- kids find a job they love, get married, spouse works to pay for grad school.
6- some variant of the above.

work with what you know. Three kids, they’re each going to college, you’ve been prudent and are going to be able to help them go. You don’t need to decide what’s going to happen in 6 years or 8 years; help your guys optimize the current decision by figuring out how to make their academic dreams come true at a price tag you can all live with.

cptofthehouse · October 10, 2012, 1:10pm

I agree fully with Blossom.

I also want to add that your kids are each going to be able to take out $5500 in Stafford Loans in their names, some of it maybe subsidized (lower interest rate, no interest accruing while in college). That’s it in their name unless you are turned down for a Parent Direct Loan (PLUS) in which case they can borrow another $4K on a non subsidized basis. So unless the schools themselves come up with other self monies or if the state has some student loan prgram, that is it. Merit money is the other source of funds. I don’t know how cycling scholarships work, but that is certainly a possibility to pursue with your athlete.

There are some private schools that guarantee to meet all need or close to it, but those tend to use PROFILE for their expected contributions and they are usually not as generaous in what they consider need. For one thing, most of them do not split the parental contribution evenly as FAFSA does. For two kids, it would be an even split for the Parental EFC plus what each students EFC personally is to come up with each kid’s total EFC. The same scenario under PROFILE gives each kid 60%of the parents EFC instead of 50%,. So right off the bat, your need is going to be less. Also primary home equity is included along with siblings assets so each kid’s bank accounts will be counted in the family assets. Yeah, nice, isn’t it . Also some car values and other things that FAFSA might not address. So your need may not be as high under a lot of schools’ formulas.

Need is often not guaranteed to be met anyways defined under FAFSA or PROFILE, so it is important to have some truly affordable options.

Longhaul · October 10, 2012, 1:13pm

Keep an open mind.Your rationale is based in the reality of family finance. It is solid, but do not discount merit at private and OOS schools.

SEE POST 8!!!

For our family, our local Community College is 1. not inexpensive ($4500/year tuition & fee) 2. not easy to get to via public transportation and 3. does not offer enough courses for our son who has already taken AP courses. Once we factor in commuting costs & meals at school, we decided it is worth the extra money per year to have son apply to a 4 yr school. This reduces stress of transfer application and takes advantage of merit only offered during freshmen year.
Be aware many transfer students do not have all credits transferred and often take longer than 4 years total to receive the bachelor degree unless you are transferring to a school in which the 2 yr has a transfer agreement in place.

You did not post SAT/ACT scores.

Alabama guarantees merit based upon GPA/standardized test scores (full tuition with 3.5UW/1400 CR/M SAT). Other schools that offer generous merit (up to full tuition) to a large number of students that I can think of: Tulane, Pitt, Kentucky.

The Net Price Calculators on each of the college websites will provide a better idea of financial aid (some will include merit) as compared to FAFSA EFC since private schools each calculate differently.

Meets Full Need schools are all over the place with NPC for my family’s income bracket. 
Below $60,000 family income seemed to provide close results for 6 schools I ran. The differences between the schools really were apparent by the time I hit $80k family income, another jump at $100k. Some colleges that did not guarantee to meet full need came in with higher aid and lower OOP for us than the guaranteed.

Our family has decided son may apply to multiple schools, try for the merit, hope for the aid, but come April, he must bend to the dollar amount we have clearly outlined. For my son, he has to prove to himself he can “get in.” Meanwhile, he is also digging deep into his safety school and discovering how good the fit is and how much it has to offer.

Another thing to keep in mind – Your EFC is essentially cut into 1/3 for each student when all 3 are in school. If 1 decides to take off a year or drop out, then each remaining students EFC will increase. This may factor in to deciding between merit school and a school offering high aid.

UpperValley · October 10, 2012, 1:13pm

Interesting insights, fieldsports. We actually had moved to this specific neighborhood because of the quality of the school district. I work in a company far south on I-25, my wife works for the military in a nearby facility. Combined, we commute 160 miles each day just so that we can live in a very good school district.

Our kids do fine and we are happy to be able to provide them. The high school has some very well-wheeled kids that drive themselves to HS on expensive private cars, fly, and that sometimes fosters a culture of keeping up with the Joneses that sadly led some of our neighbors to bankruptcy. We try to be responsible and in a certain way we are glad our sons had to learn you can’t always buy into something just because people surrounding you are doing so.

Up to this point, my sons have been at ease with the idea of attending a in-state school. They don’t fully understand the impact of high debt, though, even if I though them the maths of compounded interest. On their minds and their HS friends minds, “college loans” and “scholarships” are just interchangeable words for “money for school someone else is giving me”.

SEA_tide · October 10, 2012, 1:16pm

If the community college is open admission, meaning anybody that applies gets accepted, then there is no need to apply until later on unless earlier applications mean extra scholarship dollars.

You have a good plan. That said, there may be other inexpensive options depending on the guys’ test scores and majors. Colorado residents are eligible for the Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE) which means that tuition at certain OOS schools in the western states could be 150% of the in-state rates. [Western</a> Undergraduate Exchange (WUE) | Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education](<a href=“http://www.wiche.edu/wue]Western”>Save On College Tuition | Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE)) Depending on the school, 150% of in-state tuition rates may be less than in-state rates in Colorado.

Don’t judge schools just on academic rating. Lower-ranked schools may provide a better educational experience for certain students and may only cost a little more or may even cost less.

There is also the option of renting a house near campus for the three of them to live in, which may only be an option after freshman year due to the policy of some universities.

It is important to consider that after 18 years of being together, your sons might want to go their separate ways. If you can afford this option, it might be a better choice.

I applaud you for considering various options for your sons and wanting to keep them and yourself out of debt. While taking out loans to pay for college is common, it is by no means expected or required and can drastically affect post-graduation plans.

Emaheevul07 · October 10, 2012, 1:16pm

I had a counselor like this once, too. My parents pretty much told me at the last minute senior year, it’s community college or nothing. They had no savings for college and had no intention to pay for my schooling. I had not planned for this since this had not been what I was told originally, and I really didn’t have any other options. My guidance counselor got me all wound up saying, “just do the applications, if you get in the money will be there,” and “these things just have a way of working out in your favor,” on and on and on making me think my parents would magically come up with the money if I worked hard and got in. Well, I worked hard and got in, my parents did NOT magically come up with the money, and the devestation to me, having gotten my hopes up, was enough to turn me into a spoiled brat for a good six months. The woman just had no idea what she was talking about and had no business putting those kinds of ideas into my head. My parents should have slapped her.

I did go to community college, and given the realities of my financial situation I probably should have stopped there, or worked on my bachelors part time while I worked full time. But, I still had the “the money will be there” attitude, went to school full time and paid out the nose in loans, and now I’m buried in debt. I guess I just thought loans are a neccessary evil, EVERYONE has them, right??? Wrong. This road is never preferable when there are other options. The options you are giving your kids are great, and the opportunity to go to a good school and not come out financially ruined is priceless. Don’t let anyone tell you differently. A budget is never, ever a bad thing-- especially for a young and impressional teenager that does not know any better. They need you to help them make sound financial descisions at this point in their life. We don’t realize at 18 that college isn’t the end of the road, it’s the beginning, and taking on unnecessary debt in college is only borrowing money we’ll need for the NEXT “most important thing ever.”

UpperValley · October 10, 2012, 1:30pm

We were already a bit worn out by the process of early action/early decision. I read very carefully the terms of some early decision programs and frankly some scared me off since there were no ‘guaranteed’ aid since they adopted different criteria to define their own expected family contribution.

Colorado_mom · October 10, 2012, 1:32pm

As you do your analysis, be aware that not all schools cover full “need”. Your family may need to come up with more than EFC. And need often is covered by loan, not grant.

Consider letting your top scholar milk the high stats for really good merit aid somewhere. The on-campus experience is good, but more imporantly some majors are really tough as a commuter student. For example, engineering students often have study groups in the dorms until wee hours.

nottelling · October 10, 2012, 1:32pm

It sounds like you have a sensible plan. If it were my kids, though, I would try to find a way for them to live on campus. Have you compared the real costs of commuting versus living on campus, taking into account the real transportation costs of commuting, saved food costs, parking, etc.? Once that amount is determined, perhaps the boys can figure out a way to earn that amount, either through jobs or by taking on chores that you would normally pay outside services to perform (painting, window washing, etc.). Or you might conclude that you can handle the additional expense. Just a thought.

Commuting from home to save money for future grad school, college counselor disagrees

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