Compare UW [Washington], UBC, American U, Scripps, Pitzer, UCR, UO [Oregon] for Pol Sci/Intl Relns -> eventual law school

Compare College Acceptances
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Net price:

UW 68k

UBC 50K

American 57K

Scripps & Pitzer 94K

UCRiverside 47K

UOregon’s Clarks Honors College 50K

We (parents) are commited to paying for her undergrad. If she makes a choice that is under 60K, we may have a bit leftover for law school.

Major : Political science/International Relations/Communications → Journalism. Very interested in Public policy/History/Constitutional studies

American & UOregon have both given her big scholarships and/ admissions to Honors program.

Pre-law

California student - several waitlists at UCs - UCSD, UCD, UCSB which she would prefer (she says right now) to any of these choices. But getting off WL is a crapshoot.

Student preference → 1) Stay in CA 2) Good weather, warm, sunny, not too cold & gloomy 3) Very good academics in the fields she is interested in 4) Good social life → interested in checking out Greek life but wants a schools where social life does not revolve around Greek life only since as an Asian student getting into sororities is not the easiest thing 5) Says she wants a big city/urban experience - has only lived in suburbia all her life. Bay area, loves SF so maybe she is correct? 6) Closer to home is preferred apparently 7) College demographics - diverse is important. Friendly would be great.

Preliminary assessment → we are considering UW>UBC>American. Not considering Scripps or Pitzer too much because of the huge price tag but that might change after we visit for admitted students day.

UW is top because 1) ranking 2) her aunt (my sister) lives in Seattle so it is basically home away from home 3) Not too far from us in CA.

UBC because she is interested in living in Canada and likes Vancouver from our visit there. The 10k cheaper price tag is also enticing.

American because great internship opportunities and their school of Public policy has a great Lincoln scholar’s program. The scholarships help peak her interest and possibility of appealing for more. Worry is that since it is overall ranking is lower will she get postgrad opportunities that will set up for success for application to a top law school admission?

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These are all areas that American is very strong in. To me, given major interest, honors college and cost AU seems like an obvious choice. I realize there are other boxes it doesn’t tick, but …

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Yes that is why it is a top contender. I didn’t mention them but there 5-6 other admits that she is not even considering. So this is already a pared down list :slight_smile: which I agree sounds ridiculous.

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Multiple family members went to UBC, and I did live in Vancouver at some point in the distant past. One family member still lives on campus (there are condos – it is a rather large campus). I liked the UBC campus quite a bit, and Vancouver is an attractive city. The UBC campus for example has a botanical garden, a Japanese garden, hiking trails through the woods, a native people’s museum with totem poles and more, is surrounded by beach on two or three sides, and has the world’s largest cyclotron and a very small farm. I thought that I even saw a pheasant on campus once (although Google AI does not support my recollection). There is some grade deflation at UBC. I am not sure how this might impact law school admissions.

It rains a lot in the winter in Vancouver and Seattle, but the winters are otherwise mild at least by Canadian standards (not necessarily by California standards).

Two different family members did their bachelor’s degree in Canada, and a graduate program in the USA (both were PhD’s, one is still in progress). One son of a friend did it the other way around (bachelor’s in the USA, law school in Canada, currently practices law in Canada). I have met or worked with a few other people who did bachelor’s in Canada and some form of graduate school in the USA (including two people with a master’s from Stanford, and one with master’s and PhD from Princeton). Switching countries in this way seems to be reasonably common.

For someone interested in international relations, I do see some value in living abroad at some point in a student’s life. However, it should be possible to attend university in the USA and take a year abroad.

“A bit left over for law school” does sound like a good plan.

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If you are talking about law school admissions, I would not worry about this at all. Law schools primarily care about GPA and LSAT score. If you look at the undergrad institutions at top law schools, students come from all types of schools.If she otherwise likes American, that is the best option. It would give you more money left over for law school and the programs are good. The ranking should not be a concern at all. I would completely ignore that if you are talking what is best for law school admissions.

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It is interesting, because in your list of student preferences, “ranking” did not even get onto the preferences list! (I see “good academics,” but that is not the same of course!) Your D’s preference list somehow doesn’t seem to match up with UW/UBC being tops?

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When people mention IR as a possible interest, I like to mention this survey-based ranking that Foreign Policy magazine does every few years:

American is VERY highly regarded in this area. It leverages its DC location to excellent effect.

DC is also a temperate city, and a LOT of fun, not least for students (since the public transit is excellent and a lot of cool stuff is free). It’s not in CA or on the West Coast, but otherwise, I would agree it seems to really be what she is looking for.

In terms of its “pipeline” to law schools, it is pretty robust, more so than Washington’s, for example. Of course a lot of that is self selection, but it means they can support such ambitions, although your grades and LSAT are up to you.

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Take law school out - no one cares where you go. Harvard’s first year class, as an example, has 163 colleges represented for under 600 kids. You could go to Central Washington vs. U Washington - if the GPA and LSAT are there, etc. Other top law schools are similar.

So where will she excel - and get the best grades and experience?

Journalism is a tough major. If you do it, schools typically require a minor. At my college, back in the day, I needed a double major because let’s just say, anyone can be a journalist and if you’re not, you’re not really prepped for much else.

If she likes the UCs, then I’d look at larger schools - probably Oregon. It’s a fine school, forgetting it’s not selective. Or alternatively UCR.

I’d save money for law school, you talk about UW being a home away from home so Oregon is closer to home, and AU is nothing like the big schools she seems to prefer. It’s solid in the areas of study but nothing like a large school - the campus and student population are on the small side.

I’m not a believer in Wait Lists - I mean, schools have said no but are using you as a hedge if they fall short. But UCSB put 18k on the WL and if the CDS is right, admitted half.

UCD put near 10K on and admitted near 4k. UCI, if it’s right, said 6200 accepted a place on the WL and they admitted them all.

btw - if I had your daughter’s profile and interests, I’d choose UO over all three of the UCs. I know, for kids in CA, it’s like UCR is bad and the rest are good but for journalism and politics, I think UO, forgetting it’s easy admittance, is a better school.

Good luck.

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Thanks all. Very good perspectives … I think once she visits the 5 schools (we are going to Pitzer & Scripps even though we are not really considering them) she will hopefully have a better sense of where she thinks she will be happy.

Based on everything I have read here and elsewhere, American seems her best option even if the UCs came through. But the two factors that worry me is the distance and the smallish school. She did want a big school - American is only about 3 times of her HS so it may feel small especially compared to UW etc. But the distance is the bigger barrier. 5 hrs flight if nonstop and 7-8 hours (at least) with a stop …. I did it when I was Johns Hopkins but that was grad school and this is undergrad …. and the flying cross country gets old really fast.

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FWIW I would not revisit unaffordable schools. Nothing good can come of it. She should focus on the excellent affordable options.

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This is obviously a personal thing, but many people go to school on the opposite coast from where they live (my D19 did too). Some people don’t like being that far and others are more of the opinion that it’s only a few times a year so not such an issue, especially if there are direct flights. Given how much of the time in flying is taken up by getting to the airport/time you need to get there before the flight (which will be longer for international too when you are considering UBC), the extra couple of hours of actual flying time imo doesn’t really move the needle. An interesting exercise we did was comparing door to door driving time across to various schools in California vs flying out of state, and obviously I know there’s more than just time involved, but it was an exercise that opened my kid to looking further. (D19 was always going to the east coast and was totally unfazed by the flying.)

D19 didn’t end up going there but we really liked American when we visited, and all her other shortlisted schools for applications were much larger too.

But do they worry her?

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For the record, I don’t think the actual data available is consistent with this claim. There is quite the difference between “a path exists both places” and “each path is demonstrably just as easy to follow”, and I believe the data is ultimately more suggestive of some paths being easier than others for some individuals.

That said, I would agree it is important to pick a place she thinks she can thrive. I just don’t think it is correct to claim that we know that once you have such a list, for law schools in particular, it can’t possibly matter which you choose from that list.

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Same question.

But if SHE really wants to stay in California, and has serious doubts about her ability to thrive farther from home/in a different sort of place, I see nothing wrong with her picking her favorite UC that admits her.

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We can go over this over and over - but the facts are that whether Harvard, Penn, UVA, Yale, Gtown and more - the schools that list colleges attended - they are attended by a large amount of kids from non elite, including directional and regional schools.

From U Michigan -

“We accept students from a wide variety of undergraduate schools, with almost 300 distinct institutions represented in the student body. There most assuredly is no accredited school whose graduates we would be unwilling to admit.”

Not to debate here but I don’t see a single school above that will stand out above another.

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Right, but if College A typically sends 0-2 graduates to Law School, and College B typically sends 15-20 graduates to Law School, then the claim it doesn’t matter which college you choose is not at all obvious. Yes, the path to Law School (sometimes) exists at College A. That doesn’t mean we somehow know it is an equally easy path.

You are also right we keep going over this, because you keep making this claim. So I feel compelled to point out the actual facts and why they don’t support your chosen narrative.

So again College Transitions did a study tracking per capita placement rates at both law schools generally, and what they called “top” law schools.

They did not include UBC in that study, which makes sense as it is a Canadian school.

As for the US schools in the OP’s title, their results look like this (all law schools, top law schools):

Washington: 2.36%, 0.30%

American: 5.63%, 0.89%

Scripps: 3.63%, 1.06%

Pitzer: 3.86%, 0.51%

UCR: 2.76%, 0.18%

Oregon: 2.07%, 0.18%

These are obviously not identical numbers. However, very likely SOME of the difference is explainable by things like self-selection, plus possibly also correlations with LSAT scores.

Still, simply asserting that because none of these percentages are zero, we therefore know they are all equally good, isn’t a valid form of reasoning.

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Law school (and sometimes other professional school) placement arguments go around and around because there is not enough information to separate the selection effects (due to stronger students enrolling and/or those who are more interested in law school enrolling) from the treatment effects (that going to college A improves law school placement compared to the same student going to college B).

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Nor is a school has a higher % because it can just be that a higher % of kids applied or even assuming a similar amount did (and we know that’s unlikely), that the stats from one school were better than the other.

So look at Harvard, as an example - who from the list you quoted is in the first year class:

AU

Pitzer

Oregon

For Penn, in the overall school, all are present except Scripps and UCR - and it might simply be no one or no one with the requisite academic performance applied. But who’s at Penn - schools from College of Charleston to U Montevallo to Oregon to St. Johns to Troy to U of Montana and so many more. Obviously, at least one student applied even from non selective schools and they had the requisite scores and profiles needed to gain admission.

Nonetheless, the OP can get into law school from any - and the rank of the law school will depend on the LSAT, GPA and other things.

And again, given OP’s interests (journalism and political science and the desire for a large school), I think Oregon is the best bet - even if they get off the UC WLs. While AU might sound better, it doesn’t appear to be the type of school OP desires.

I wish OP luck.in whatever they decide.

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If you take the position that you can get there from anywhere, one would think personal preference would be most important… and I’m not seeing anything in OP’s post saying “my child visited Eugene and loved it and feels they would be happiest at U of O”

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Thank you all for your perspective. Really this discussion is wonderful.

  1. Yes the distance to AU worries my kid. How worried I don’t know. But we will know how much she likes it before we put down the deposit so there is that. I like the door to door idea. I don’t think the flying will be less than 5-6 rountrips a year which to me seems like a lot.

  2. She was heartbroken at being WL at some of the UCs. Now it may be a blessing in disguise. But that said, my sense is she is waiting for them WLs to come through.

  3. Thank you so much NiceUnparticularMan for the college transitions info! Really the numbers are great. I am a data nerd so I love geeking out on stuff like that. And I understand that there are variables like selection bias etc but I can see that American and Scripps (which I did not expect) are punching above their weight. I am going to research them for the UCs that she is on the WL.

  4. She is not considering in Oregon. She is sure she does not want to be in (in her words) middle of nowhere - one of issues with Scripps & Pitzer.

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But another point, I read here (on another thread) that apparently you should take 1-2 years to work before applying to law school. At that point does the undergrad school matter? I’m not saying it doesn’t, just wondering aloud.