Concurrent Credit or Early College High School?

Parents Forum
41

There’s no way to figure out what “better engineer” means. Is it the person developing composite materials for prosthetic limbs? Is it the person working on the team which is making prototypes for aircraft engines that use less fuel? Is it the person helping to create a new type of server farm that uses less water and produces fewer environmental problems? Is it the person who is figuring out a contaminant-free dosage system for vaccines which can be used in hot climates with no reliable refrigeration?

Who is the best engineer-- and for that matter, why does it matter?

You need to check to determine that there is actually a university out there that will allow you to graduate with a degree from its engineering school with only a year or year and a half of classes there. If there isn’t, you are jumping through a lot of hoops.

You need to slow down. The world isn’t running out of graduate school. You are still in HS and you don’t need to “approach” grad school right now. Your interests will likely change in college and a program which you think is “better” right now may be sub-optimal once you’re finished your BS.

Why the rush here? I get that college is expensive and you are trying to maximize your dollars. But skipping steps rarely makes anyone the “best” of whatever. Does Yo-Yo Ma have to practice scales? yes he does. Did Frank Lloyd Wright have to study drafting? Yes he did…

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42

In that case, I don’t know. When I say best engineer, I mean compared to what I could’ve done. I don’t compare similar proficiency across different fields, because it just doesn’t make sense.

I am talking about whatever field I decide to go into. It’s likely that it’ll be EE or CS. So for the prosthetic limbs example, if one person was an medium level engineer and the other was a researcher on the subject, then I would probably say the researcher was the better “engineer” here.

As to the reason it matters, it’s because I’d be fairly disappointed if I knew that I could’ve easily done more and didn’t.

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43

In order to do more, you need to consider the type of courses at MIT/Stanford/Cornell/Olin will cover more and more in-depth than a typical class at your flagship.
Do you think that Algebra1 class you took in Middle School is the same as Algebra1 at Stuyvesant or another highly selective STEM high school? Or just compare what Precalc regular covers at your HS to Precalc Honors and AP Precalc. A top Stem school has the same difference with your flagship as Precalc regular to AP Precalc except compressed into one semester - depth and speed. (This is NOT to say your flagship is like a HS but reflecting the possibility of what’s out there to learn, even if the course title sounds similar).
Imagine being in a class where everyone is assumed to be like you and the professor matches that. The work you have to do is similar in surface but in reality is at a completely different level. That’s what CSE or EE classes would be like at MIT/Cornell/Stanford/Olin etc and why you shouldn’t take all these advanced courses at your flagship - because the classes will only cover a fraction of what you’d learn at a top engineering school.
Also, being a high level engineer is more than technical and scientific excellence: you need to communicate and interact well with people who will be very different from you; you may have to live in another country, speaking another language and dealing with culture shock as well as finding new ways to handle situations outside your comfort zone.

So, the “being able to do more”, doesn’t mean taking every EE class your flagship offers but making the above possible through various classes and activities (I suggested Interpersonal communication, psychology and the quantitative psych application course, and art appreciation, but there are lots of possible choices at your flagship; you could volunteer in places your skills become handy in addition to working that service job where you must be learning a lot about people - good topic or anecdotes for a college essay-, you could try and acquire the habitus you would need as a high level engineer who’s likely to head a research team…) Basically to be the best engineer you need to give yourself space to grow in college, ready for the hardest classes , while also preparing for a new role and ways of living…

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You are creating a dichotomy that does not exist in the real world.

The solution to “easily done more and didn’t” is to actually DO IT. Nobody in your life is going to hold you back. And the world needs all types of problem-solvers- which is why most engineering breakthroughs are made by teams comprised of people with different skills and approaches.

A long time ago, Bill Gates was interviewed and asked who the most valuable members of the team had been for the creation and introduction of Microsoft Office. He answered “the anthropologists on the team. They had insights into how groups operate and think that none of the engineers could have ever produced”. Similar answers have been given about the creation of the Apple watch/computer, I-phone, etc. but this time giving credit to the visual artists (not engineers- but actual creative folks who know which things look more aesthetically pleasing than others).

Don’t get ahead of your skis. It’s great that you want a rigorous education and that you want to “do more” and not less. But skipping through college is probably not the way to do it. And skipping all the other knowledge domains in the world is also not the way to “do more”.

A person researching prosthetic limbs who hasn’t taken psychology, anatomy, or studied design is not likely to come up with a breakthrough. The advances in medical devices are coming out of insights that are far removed from the actual device- and drill down on the human patient behind the medical diagnosis.

I met a guy recently working on a cap (yes, a thingie that fits on your head) that they think can provide a long term solution to clinical depression and chronic pain. His team has every type of knowledge you can think of- psychologists, linguists, computer scientists, mathematicians, material scientists, a fashion designer who works on adaptive apparel, chemists, mechanical engineers and then a few more. They are hoping that with more experts added to the team they can add Parkinson’s and other chronic neurological disorders to the list of possibilities.

How cool is that? “medium engineers” plus all their colleagues!

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45
  • Which schools would like the profile of option one?

As it is, because the first year looks unbalanced and insane (and not what thriving to be a great engineer would imply- a reviewer could well file it under “adolescent hubris” I’m afraid), probably, your state flagship, and perhaps MUST and Colorado Mines.
With some tweaks such as the ones I listed, beside your flagship, you could try for Canadian universities (more specialized than US universities: Waterloo, UToronto, McGill, UBC, Concordia, McMaster), British universities (more like grad school for undergrad - Oxford, Imperial, and pick 3 from Edinburg, Glasgow, Herriot-Watt, Bristol, Bath, Manchester)
Perhaps CalTech, probably the Polytechnique International BS, for the Math/CS specialty.
https://programmes.polytechnique.edu/en/bachelor/about-the-bachelor/bachelor-of-science

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46

Not exactly the best example, since entrants to such high schools mostly have done algebra 1 in middle school, and those high schools presumably design their math sequence options to accommodate varying levels of high school level math preparation in middle school, without necessarily requiring students to repeat algebra 1. (A similar situation exists with respect to calculus in college and students who completed calculus in high school.)

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Would my finances be better long term if I just went to my state flagship and graduated on a full ride? I could do so within about 1-1.5 years.
A full ride is great.
Definitely apply for that.
Do run the NPCs on the colleges listed before (MIT, Cornell, Caltech, Stanford, Olin, UIUC, Cal Poly SLO, Georgia Tech, Purdue as well as the international programs) to see whether they’re affordable because they’d offer greater depth of learning with challenging peers and broader opportunities.
Affordable when there’s a difference in what you get and pushes you much further can be better than free that doesn’t necessarily get you where you want to go.
Graduating in 1-1.5 years is a recipe for disaster because for grad school you’ll need industry experience (internships or co-ops) and research, preferably presentations and at least one solid publication.
If you have a full ride, you should use your already-advanced classes to interview for internships all three summers, study abroad on a field-enhancing program, take graduate-level classes, get involved in research and defend an Honors thesis (this will be expected for grad school).
Obviously you should not go into debt for college.
So, run the NPCs to see which colleges are affordable.

Would I be a better engineer following the original pathway than the modified one? I ask this mainly for the early stages of my career, where it really matters just how good I am.
I don’t understand your question. If you mean your 2 HS pathways, you’d be a better engineer with path 2 (or path 1, but modified as per upthread).

How do I approach grad school if I do option one (and in general)? What are they looking for and which of the schools I match with would give me the best opportunities to continue my education?

Your grad school options will depend on your GPA, a GRE score, recommendations (so you’ll need to develop relationships with professors), internships/professional experience, research (conference presentations, publication, thesis). They will look for 3+ years where you’ve been challenged. This can be done by double majoring + honors college at your flagship though the above universities would have more opportunities for you as long as you do well there.

Is which graduate school I go to more important for becoming a better engineer than where I go for undergrad?
Your foundation is undergrad.
Grad school is specialization.
So, your college will give opportunities to become the best engineer you can be and the more aptitude you’ve shown the more opportunities.
Grad school will not make you a good or better engineer, it will make you more specialized.
Where you go for grad school does matter.

Is where I get my undergraduate degree significant in terms of content learned when comparing top schools to top flagships? In other words, is it that a student who goes to MIT is a better engineer because of MIT or better because they were among the top 0.00001% of high schoolers who got into MIT.
Because they have been deemed exceptional students and future engineers, they are given exceptional opportunities which in turn turbocharges their learning, experiences, etc. If you’re comparing UOk or Mizzou to MIT or Stanford, they’re very different in a out everything even though all are ABET accredited.

Do employers care more about where I got my graduate degree than where I got my undergraduate degree?
Yes, but they will also care what experiences (internships, job, research, volunteering, etc) you’ve had before grad school.

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48

You’re missing the forest for the trees here, but anyway… all students take a placement test at Camp Stuy and some are placed in Geometry/Algebra, which is Algebra1+Geometry. Most are placed in Geometry and some in Algebra2/Math Team. The key point is that NONE of these courses are what non selective NYC MS/HS students take under the title of Algebra, Geometry, or Algebra2 - just like DiffEqs at MIT is quite different from DiffEqs in HS or at Mizzou, UOk, Mississippi State etc. Just because a course has the same name doesn’t mean the content is the same.
So, OP, who sounds gifted and eager to learn, should “save” their advanced EE/CS/CSE for the MIT version.

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49

I’m planning on retaking any high-level classes or classes that I just don’t have the same level of understanding in. For those classes, I’d treat the flagship ones like an intro class. I believe doing this would give me a stronger foundation than the other students expected to do the same work.

I’d still probably skip some of the more super foundational classes like Programming 101 since the upper levels at the state flagship should have me covered there.

I don’t think I’d like those to be my only options. That gets me less money, and I wouldn’t even become as good of an engineer. What I think I’m going to do is drop the two grad level STEM electives and take some community college or cheap concurrent humanities. I’d spread out about three or four of them over the 2 years, including 11th summer. I’d probably hate every minute of it, but its better than stagnating long term.

I do really like the idea of Caltech. I’d probably try for the more technical top schools as well.

These were the top two convincing reasons to bite the bullet and suffer through those humanities classes.

I don’t really get why not having balanced classes is bad, but I’m pretty sure that if I’ve gotten the same strong reaction against it from 10 educated adults it isn’t a very good idea. Maybe I’ll understand why when I’m older or something. I’ll listen to my parents on the balanced classes front until then.

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50

Never mind. As of 30 minutes ago, I have had both choices taken from me. My parents believe that going to the public high school is the best option for me.
It sucks, but they also aren’t allowing me to do any dual enrollment/college credit at all. Since I’ve finished all of the science AP’s, this means that I’ll be stuck with the humanities for the next two years.

They are telling me that I’ll still get into a top school, but it seems unlikely to me. A STEM student who hasn’t done any STEM for their last two years of high school? I guess I can take AP Bio and AP Environmental Science, but those are my only two remaining options.

I didn’t see this outcome coming either if I’m being honest. But all things considered, I don’t think your statement was very accurate.

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Seems like they went to the other extreme of preventing you from taking math and science beyond what the high school offers.

A more sensible option for college preparation would be taking a few college courses in math, science, and introductory engineering and CS, while taking additional humanities and social studies in high school (to complete the well rounded base). I would suggest the following college courses:

  • Math: some of calculus 3, discrete math (to gauge interest in theoretical CS), linear algebra, differential equations
  • Science: perhaps the next physics course after your AP physics C placement
  • EE: electric circuits or whatever the introductory EE course is, to gauge interest in EE
  • CS: introductory CS courses, to gauge interest in CS

while taking in high school (choose more rigorous or AP courses if you are aiming for highly selective colleges):

  • English
  • Foreign language level 3, 4
  • History and social studies (try to get to 4 years)
  • Visual or performing arts (try to get to 1 year of the same kind of art)
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52

I can’t take those courses. I don’t really know what I’m supposed to do.

I’m far too young for emancipation, too young to join the military, and too young to do the marriage escape route (yes people really do that).

The only way I could continue my education would be if I could find someone else willing to be my guardian in exchange for the majority of my income (tough sell to say the least). It’d take the whole first semester from legal process length, so I’d still be stuck with humanities then.

I’m not going to pretend that is a good or even likely option, but it is the only one left available. In my state, your parents get to choose exactly what classes you get to take.

The worst part of that plan is that it wouldn’t be dependent on my own hard work, just somebody else’s arbitrary decision.

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Why do your parents not want you to take more advanced math and science courses alongside courses in other subjects?

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54

They are targeting them in a roundabout sort of way. The problem is that I have done the previous science AP’s, and they will not allow me to do dual enrollment or concurrent enrollment. I can take AP Bio and AP Environmental Science, but I don’t really consider those to be of the same caliber as any of the courses I have taken or could have taken.

This leaves the humanities as the only classes I can take. The public high school does not have Cal III non concurrently. So I cannot take it. The public high school does not have an Electric Circuits class. So I cannot take it. The public high school does not have Diff Eq, so I cannot take it.

Anyways, I really need a better plan than essentially begging people to adopt me. That would make for a pretty good admissions essay though…

What should I be doing right now?

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Might it be because you and your parents got in a fight over your plans and at that point you weren’t able to defend a middle way, one of you dug their heels in, the other did too, and you ended up with everything taken away?
If so, perhaps when things cool down, you can show them a more balanced schedule that involves advanced math& tech but also humanities&social science - because you’re right, you need to keep learning. It just needs to make more sense. Pathway 2 is better than “just HS” when you’ve completed a lot of classes there already so if your modified Pathway1 doesn’t pass muster Pathway 2 would still be a way for you to keep learning. You can use the modified schedule I suggested upthread or the one by ucbalumnus above, as a basis for what you could do.

Look through the catalog at your flagship: do they offer Literature: science fiction? (You could enter the English 143: Literature title on your road map for your parents.) What about History of science? Do they have something like Engineering in Ancient times or Romans feats of Engineering in the Classics department? You should be able to find classes that interest you if you comb through the catalog then email each department, asking when the class will be offered (sth like: Dear Pr. X, My name is Ztii XZ and I’m planning my courses for the next two years. I’m especially interested in Classics 176: Feats of Ancient Engineering and was wondering when the class is scheduled so that I make sure to take it. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Ztii XZ).
Anything involving Environmental Science is of interest to pretty much any major but especially to anyone in STEM so look through the Environmental science, Environmental Engineering, Geography pre-reqs and take classes from there.
I already suggested classes that would help you function as an Engineer: Interpersonal communication (it may have a pre-req), Quantitative Research/Stats for Psychology (it may have a pre-req), Graphic Design, Art Appreciation, a foreign language through proficiency. I’ll add others: Leadership courses, Organizational Psychology, Cultural Anthropology, Ethics. In short, lots of classes you can add to 1 advanced math and 1-2 advanced STEM classes (intro EE, intro CS, engineering design, physics). 5 classes a semester and potentially 2 over the Summer, that’s 12 next year and 10 senior year. Lots of options that aren’t just Tech yet should be interesting.

Btw I know you don’t understand why you need to balance your schedule but it’s okay as long as you trust us and do it - I had to do things sometimes when I clearly didn’t see the point but later on I realized that ooh yeah that’s why. For Art Appreciation it’s a class most adults who were surveyed and took it said they were glad they took it, even if they weren’t when they took it and even if it took a while to sink in - though many enjoyed it while taking it, too. Make sure you take a good prof (use RateMyProf).

You can keep this (“I took this intro EE class to see whether I’d be interested in the field and as a possible foundation for what I would take at the university I would graduate from” …) for your “additional information” box in CommonApp. This way selective universities will know you did this as a way to gauge interest for field and out of intellectual curiosity, not because you expect to bypass their own courses as if you thought they’re the same as the ones they offer.

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56

I’m sorry you’re feeling disappointed about your parents’ decision to enroll you in public school. But try to look at it this way - welcome to your first introduction to the real world of engineering! Engineers solve problems within the constraints they’re given, and those constraints can change at any moment. Usually, the main constraints are time, money, and scope. Other obstacles also pop up at every turn! In your case, it’s your parents’ decision and the course offerings at your high school.

Add me to the list of people encouraging you to take a full complement of classes. Here in Virginia, I can’t imagine any college-bound student not earning the Advanced Studies Diploma. It’s sort of a no-brainer around here. The requirements typically include four years of English, four years of math, three years of a foreign language (or two years of two different languages- four total), two years of health/PE, one fine arts credit, one personal finance class, and three electives.

How about AP Statistics? Taking it this year would give you a solid math course while you consider options for senior year. My eldest did exactly that when scheduling issues prevented him from attending math classes at the local university. I also think AP Environmental Science or AP Biology would be fine choices. Perhaps your high school has a way to take more advanced classes online, that aren’t college courses. It may be too late for this year, but possibly next.

What makes a great engineer? It’s someone who can work creatively within seemingly impossible constraints. A great engineer is also a great listener and observer—someone who seeks to understand the client’s vision, even when the client has trouble articulating it. Great engineers collaborate well with their team, are open to others’ ideas, and can acknowledge when someone else’s solution is better. They are effective communicators, knowing when to use technical language and when to explain things more simply - without ever talking down to anyone.

Notice what I didn’t mention? Someone who took as many classes as possible.

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57

I suggest prepping for the PSAT, especially the reading section, over the summer. (The reading section is weighted twice as much as the math section) Rural states have low NMSF cutoff scores, so you should try to aim for being a national merit finalist, which will give you access to some full tuition/full ride scholarships at a few good schools.

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58

Can you list out what your 11th and 12th grade classes will likely be now? I’m assuming this is a different HS than the one you attended for 9th and 10th?

You MUST take math and science each year. So, if AP Bio and APES are the only two choices available to you, then take those. What math classes will be available for 11th/12th? Perhaps this is how to get your parents to compromise on some DE courses…highly rejective schools will not be possible without rigor in math and science in 11th and 12th.

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It’s ironic- schools like MIT require biology of every student. You can’t graduate without it. You can be studying String Theory or Econ or Mechanical Engineering- and you STILL need to take bio.

Ask yourself why. Why is it considered one of the building blocks of scientific and mathematical literacy. And then challenge yourself to spend the year you are taking bio to figure out why this is so. Gotta be a reason, right? What is the reason? How can you take advantage of the opportunity to take bio?

Environmental is an even harder challenge- but probably one you can handle. What problems are posed in the APES class that engineers know how to solve (some of them), what problems are posed that engineers do NOT know how to solve, and what are the issues/content areas that aren’t problems yet but that will be coming down the pike?

This is where your brain really needs to engage. What are the implications of a warming planet? What are the issues that worldwide migrations bring to bear? How do birthrates impact the “built environment” vs. the natural environment? How is it that some countries produce excess food and others are suffering famine-- and what role can engineers (of every single discipline- this is a big, holistic issue) play in fixing it? How has disease (Spanish flu, Covid, Polio, Smallpox, cancer) impacted the way scientists view the natural world (friend or foe? Are viruses helping us or killing us?) and what are the societal level solutions?

Have you ever asked why there is a Nobel prize in medicine (a bio infused discipline) but not in engineering (the branch of science you seem to revere)? Perhaps taking these required courses will give you insight-- and will advance your education MUCH more than doubling down on one of the courses you seem to prefer…

Looks to me like a blessing in disguise.

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60

Is your goal HYPMS level colleges? If so, you are almost certainly lessening your chances. Based on what you have said here, I don’t see anything except academics and a job you like that put you in the running for admission to those schools. Kids who get into those schools are going to have all of that and much more.

I am confused about your goal.
-Is the goal to keep the job? Then choose the path that allows you to do that.
-Is the goal to get through college as quickly as possible so that you can go to grad school? Then choose the path where you can enter college with real credits, earn CLEP credits by placing out of intro level courses (look it up on College Board), graduate in a couple of years, and go to grad school.
-Is the goal to have a good college experience at a prestigious university? If so, neither plan is ideal. As others have said, the most selective colleges will look to see that you have fulfilled their requirements. And even if you don’t have them all, they would want to see some compelling reason in order to overlook whatever is lacking in your app. Like maybe your school didn’t offer something they state an applicant should have. Or they would want to see something non-school related that might compensate for what you lack in academics. For example, some prominent community involvement, or that you are a professional dancer…etc…

Is there a compelling reason you need to keep your job? I don’t think you should give it up if you love it. Is the job a means to help support the family? That is a much more compelling factor for keeping it as opposed to you just really enjoy it.

I’m not clear what exactly you want to achieve by going to college, apart from a degree.