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<p>IME, one can’t assume that of all or even most full-pay students on the basis of being full-pay alone. </p>
<p>If undergrads end up partying, missing classes, and making poor choices, it’s very likely there’s some serious missed red flag indications of such beforehand in HS or a serious academic/psychological issue which threw the student concerned for a major loop. </p>
<p>“In our experiences, those students who depend upon mommy and daddy to pay for everything are the same ones who end up partying, missing class and making poor choices.”</p>
<p>Not my experience. We paid what financial aid (about 40%) did not. Daughter has always understood that this was a serious financial commitment and has done her best to pull her own weight – and has done so. I don’t think it’s a question of putting the responsibility on the child but making sure the child understands the burden. </p>
<p>Torveaux, you have a right to make your own decisions, and if you can’t afford to give your kids much support, that’s just the way it is, but if you can I’m not sure how reasonable it is to refuse to pay simply to instill the value of hard work. With the cost of college being what it is, even the most hard-working kid is likely to find the burden almost impossible unless he or she attends a school well below their ability level - and I’m not talking the state flagship. Yeah, maybe your kids will be/are so top notch that they’ll get a free ride to their flagship state U or significant merit money elsewhere, but more likely you’ll have kid struggling to work his or her way through a CC and then transfer to a regional college. Not a tragedy, and no reason they can’t do fine in life anyway, but not necessarily the best option if the family has the means to pay for better without significant hardship.</p>
<p>If you want to instill responsibility, why not require your kids to have jobs in high school and college and require a certain modest amount in loans? That keeps them invested without curtailing their options so severely.</p>
<p>And by the way, I’m not sure where your experience comes from, but at certain schools it would be quite hard to make a distinction between the kids whose parents are paying and the kids who are paying their own way because EVERYONE’s parents are paying. At a lot of places, the slacker may be relying on mommy and daddy, but so is the valedictorian. </p>
<p>We paid 40% for S and 100% of COA for D (S got merit aid for 60% or so). We still feel that both are VERY grateful for our help and didn’t fritter their educations. We didn’t feel they needed to take on loans in order to take their educations seriously. S has been able to start his career and life, saving a LOT of money so he is very self-sufficient and building up a good nest egg for retirement and other needs/wants and pays his portion of his medical insurance (with employer paying the rest).</p>
<p>As was stated by others, it seems unfair that parents are trying to force OP to attend a U that is unaffordable to parents AND OP, and then assume the loans of parents that will be a huge mountain of debt.</p>
<p>Merit and FAid are good things for kids that qualify for them. Even so, it is important for families to have honest discussions about what IS and IS NOT affordable and what is a reasonable amount of debt to be considered in connection with education.</p>
<p>To be quite honest, I am mostly in the dark about our financial situation. Before moving to Manhattan, we lived in Bergen county New Jersey, which I’m sure some of you know is one of the highest-income counties in the country and the property taxes are simply insane. We relocated because I was very unhappy at my previous high school and so that my father didn’t have to commute to work anymore. Living in the city is also expensive and my family has a lot of luxuries…high-end, frivolous belongings and my parents still have their Mercedes and Audi when there is virtually no use for it in a place like Manhattan. I hope nobody takes this as a pretentious advertisement of my family’s seemingly affluent lifestyle, but these are really the only indicators I have about our financial situation. That and during this entire college process, my parents have not once expressed serious concern about cost. I had to badger my father to fill out the FAFSA application because he said we didn’t need it. However, they’re definitely concerned about whether or not they are getting their money’s worth. When I ask about our finances, I am told that I don’t need to know the details. </p>
<p>@apprenticeprof: My parents would never kick me out (for real), but my relationship with them has been strained greatly over the last 4 years. I don’t think there is any real way of salvaging it at this point, but I would like to prevent any further damage. There have been many times that I have sat down with them, but we simply cannot have an adult conversation because they will not listen to me. Any difference of opinion will lead to a big fight. It’s not uncommon for them to get up and leave the room in the middle of an unpleasant conversation if I express an idea/opinion that does not align with theirs.</p>
<p>@intparent: Yes, my family is aware of this. Fortunately, they did not fight me on this. They both pursued what they wanted to in college as opposed to what would be most practical. My father actually dropped out a month before receiving his PhD because he was no longer happy and now he has a good job in a completely unrelated field. Plus with all the contacts my family has, they’re not incredibly worried about me finding work which is probably why they find it reasonable for me to reimburse them for tuition. </p>
<p>@amiable: Thank you 
I hope it all works out as well. </p>
<p>@austinmshauri: As I mentioned above, they wouldn’t kick me out but it would definitely affect my relationship with them negatively. We’re not very good as it is. I would like to keep it from getting any worse.</p>
<p>@deb922: No, not at all. I greatly appreciate that complete strangers have taken the time to give me advice and offer their help I am not receiving a lot of support from the people in my life, so I am very grateful to all of you. I don’t know if my parents are really trying to control me. Part of the reason my relationship with them is somewhat unpleasant is because they were incredibly controlling when I was in middle school and in the beginning of high school, but they realized I’m not the type to listen to anybody. I know I must seem a bit on the passive side from what I’ve expressed on this thread, but they are right about this. It’s just that my parents are the ones with the money, so I can’t really ‘defy’ them at the moment. </p>
<p>@sally305: Thank you :)</p>
<p>@GertrudeMcFuzz: Thank you Yes, I will be sure to mention that the next time we speak. </p>
<p>@Midwestmomofboys: I might be able to persuade my father to take a visit with me, but I know my mother cannot be swayed. She’s very stubborn and even the idea of me attending IU upsets her, so I don’t know how I could possibly get her on a plane there. She did say to me before that if I really want to see IU, I should go by myself because I’m clearly old enough to make my own choices. This was just an act of passive-aggression on her part, but she did technically give me her permission. Yes, I’ve heard all these positive things about Bloomington. I have a number of friends who attend and they really love it there. Thank you!</p>
<p>@Pepper17: Thank you, and yes, I do believe I am trying to convince myself to be concerned about the money. All my friends in college are constantly talking about the amount of debt they’re accumulating, which scares me because I’ll soon be in the same boat. However, I think I’ve been so sheltered and fortunate enough that my family hasn’t had any financial troubles that I cannot actually seriously imagine what it will be like to be in debt.</p>
<p>@Delfa307: Thank you! </p>
<p>@cobrat: My father did say Indiana is full of “racist hicks” and told me a story about and Indian friend who went there on business and had an unpleasant experience (not in Bloomington though). Also, my father has never been to Indiana, so I discredited this immediately. I think his internalized racism and ignorance about people in the Midwest and South is really brought on by his own experiences from when he was my age. I mentioned before that he attended college in West Virginia, which he did not enjoy because he was given a hard time about being Asian. He went to grad school in NorCal where there is more diversity and really liked it there. To top it off, he was the only Asian student in his high school and was constantly getting in physical fights because of it. I probably should’ve mentioned this earlier because a lot of those who have replied have used male pronouns to refer to me, but I am a girl which is why my father was so adamant that I stay out of the south. If I was a boy, I don’t believe he would be so concerned with my safety and it most likely would not be an issue.</p>
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<p>While there are certain rural parts of Indiana where this is still an issue, Bloomington isn’t one of them. Quite far from it. </p>
<p>Moreover, there was an ugly anti-Asian racist incident which took place in the Syracuse area during my college years in 1997. Here’s a link from the Daily Orange: </p>
<p><a href=“A decade later: Details surrounding April 11, 1997, Denny's incident still remain unclear, despite strong emotions within SU community - The Daily Orange”>http://dailyorange.com/2007/04/a-decade-later-details-surrounding-april-11-1997-denny-s-incident-still-remain-unclear-despite-strong-emotions-within-su-community/</a></p>
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<p>Sounds like your father had a similar experience as I did…as a first and second grader in a Catholic elementary school and later, junior high…in 1980’s era Manhattan. </p>
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<p>I have been on a business trip to a place in Indiana where it seemed like there were only white people there (I am a member of a visible minority group). I did not encounter anything especially unpleasant there.</p>
<p>Of course, be anywhere long enough, and you can find racism.</p>
<p>Hopefully your dad will make the trip to Indiana with you.</p>
<p>I know two MDs who were in elementary school and HS in Hawaii back 50 years ago (one’s father was military, the other’s was a banker) and those two white boys were terribly harassed by the local boys. This has of course changed over the years with more main-landers living in Hawaii.One was quite bitter about it; the other did not let it affect him as much (this is many years later).</p>
<p>Your dad does have some fears for you. Sounds like your mom has a way of operating too that puts a kink into things.</p>
<p>Try to move your plans forward as best you can.</p>
<p>I too was confused by the one poster who thought you were male; Glad you straightened that out.</p>
<p>Good luck and let us know what happens. I also think you should visit both schools so you can go over the decision process with your dad.</p>
<p>@gertrudemcfuzz 1st child starts school this Fall. He is going to OU on a full-ride NMF scholarship. If we were footing his education bill, he would have likely pursued more prestigious options more strenuously. However, he will be a ChemE major and plans to go to grad school for a PhD. The prestige will be more relevant for the school from which he gets the PhD. Even if he did that at OU, he would have a great life all else being equal. In my experience, there are thousands of options for industrious students who have the desire to learn and work ethic to make it happen. Many corporations will pay for tuition for employees. That may make graduation a few years further down the road, but my wife and I both graduated from college (MBA in her case) with no loans or debts. Military is an option. Living at home and going to local college, CC, or online school is an option. I learned the hard way that all that matters is where you finish. Spending a couple of years at a CC may not be what students WANT, but it rarely has the catastrophic effects and abject horror many would have you believe.</p>
<p>Others, I fully understand that some parents do not have the will to see their kids struggle at all to make themselves better. It is very hard to say no, but it is with much love and they know they have our full support in making THEIR decisions. One of the big reasons that college tuition is out of control is that too many of us have blindly followed a system that convinces us that only the most exclusive colleges that charge the most tuition will give our children the opportunity to succeed. If we don’t say ‘No’ to the tuition inflation, it will keep going up.</p>
<p>A neighbor of ours years ago had a daughter who wanted to go to an elite Catholic university nearby. The family took out a 2nd mortgage to pay for it. Then she switched to Elementary Ed as a major. No offense to El Ed majors, but the school was not a top school for that and was way too pricey for that. They kept paying. Then she wanted to go to grad school…at Syracuse. They kept paying. The parents are now working well beyond retirement years and the kid is working at the same type of job for the same salary she would have had going to the local college.</p>
<p>I understand your parents’ perspective better now. I don’t agree with their choice for you, but I see where they are coming from and why. </p>
<p>It seems to me like their view of non coastal America and its relationship to Asian students is out of date. There are high achieving Asian kids in ALL colleges now (and many high schools, including non coastal ones). You wouldn’t be the only one and it is unlikely you would be picked on. Maybe one way to win your folks over is to show them how the culture in the Midwest has changed? Visit Asian student groups and talk to current students at your choice school. (Fwiw my husband is an immigrant and says he feels more comfortable in more multicultural urban areas. To my knowledge he has never suffered a slight in smaller towns.)</p>
<p>I am sorry your relationship with your folks is strained. The only comfort I can give is that it isn’t unusual for kids and parents to fight more as the kids grow up. I had a terrible time with my dad until I was self supporting in my early twenties. Then he could offer his opinion, but I didn’t have to take it. That is why I keep suggesting the army. You don’t have to go into the service, but if you can find a way to pay for your education, you do get more freedom from your parents. </p>
<p>I find the location bias interesting. Being from Ohio, I don’t really think of Syracuse as a private university. The reason is that we have a number of public universities in Ohio named for the cities in which they are located ie. The University of Cincinnati, The University of Toledo, Akron etc. Syracuse University is a mid sized D1 school with moderate acceptance rates and a national ranking similar to many of the state flagships so it doesn’t separate itself as an elite private university such as Harvard, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt etc., nor as an LAC. When someone says Syracuse University around here it’s often assumed it’s a state university. This is not to disparage the school it’s merely an example of how where you live can affect your perceptions.</p>
<p>I can’t speak for Indiana University, however, my daughter attends Purdue which has a very high number of foreign students, many of them of Asian ansestry. She works with and has many friends who are Asian. Typically the issue of backround isn’t discussed, they are all just students. Indiana is different from a number of states in that it really has two flagship universities IU and Purdue. IU has no engineering school and Purdue has no music school. Some areas in which they overlap one or the other tends to have the stronger program. Bloomington like West Lafayette is a college town although I have heard that the city and campus are prettier. The midwest is not the south and Bloomington especially. I am guessing even in the south most campuses are not going to be what some would deem the south to be. On a campus the size of IU you find rich kids, poor kids, smart kids, kids who need some catching up. There will be partying and there will be many very serious students. Good luck.</p>
<p>@Torveaux - i can hear the love in your “voice” for your kids and the full emotional support you are offering them. I think there is great value in taking responsibility for your own education. It can be painful as well though. My friends were all off at UC’s having great adventures, while I was living at home & working 25 hours a week to pay my tuition & save to be able to move out. I felt very sad at being left behind. I did manage to move out for junior and senior years and then it was fine. I have not been more successful in my career than any of those friends.
So I guess I feel that my kids deserve to have what their friends are getting if we can afford it, which we can, though we have set an upper limit on what we will contribute & any remainder will be up to the kids themselves.</p>
<p>OP - sorry to take this off topic! </p>
<p>As I may have said in this thread, the military option is closing on paying for certain degrees via ROTC. My niece who is a current Captain in the Air Force (security, MP background) got a BS in Psychology at a very good school that was close to a more elite school; she did ROTC training the first year under her half scholarship (academic/athletic) and ROTC paid the other 3. Currently Air Force ROTC is only ‘enrolling’ engineering students. She has a great career with her modest Psychology degree, taking additional training as offered via her military job.</p>
<p>My DD has been in college marching band and has been thinking of the ROTC option through our several visits to the command. Sophomore year she has taken the college ROTC courses and physical fitness training as a nursing major. Due to the discipline she has had in academics and with the band (taking instruction in a very military way), she had the maturity and understanding for doing well as a cadet. She is awaiting the national enrollment for summer boot camp (‘field training’) - there are 2500 on the Air Force national list, and they will for sure take 1500 and the rest depends on budgeting…field training was modified from 4 weeks to 3 weeks due to budget cuts. We do not know if her package if ‘in’ will be cut on benefits.</p>
<p>You may have heard the Navy has suspended The Blue Angels due to budget cuts.</p>
<p>From all the OP stated, her parents are willing to help her with college expenses although they really have not sorted it all out. I am from a different immigration culture, but can relate how these parents think differently than others. My older sister was supposed to start college at the same place as me (she had some education overseas and some medical issues), but while my parents were on vacation overseas with my younger siblings, she went on her own ‘vacation’ (took one of the cars and went with a girlfriend) and ended up finding another LAC - long story short, even though they already started school - she was admitted via a phone call arrangement (with the college President) from someone who intervened for my sister without parent knowledge, so when parents came back after quite a ‘discussion’ (first that she went on this extended trip, leaving me ‘holding the bag’ with home and business responsibilities; then secondly about this new college situation), they went to the school with her to take her and her stuff and checked out the school and she was reasonably happy there for two years. Meanwhile instead of parents helping send me off at the same time, I had a car, loaded up my stuff and traveled to my college (age 17, by myself). My 18 year old brother also made arrangements to get himself to his in-state college, or maybe that school started a week later (yes we had 3 begin college at the same time; brother took a gap year to work overseas). By the way, I was not really happy to have my older sis at my college because it was small (one dorm, all women college) and I wanted my own college experience not overshadowed by my sibling who at home received a lot of attention due to weird family dynamics and was very needy at the time (and I was stronger in the courses for our same major; she ended up not staying in that major because she was not strong enough in the pre-reqs and after her 2 years at that college did eventually finish a degree and then a master’s in library science). I was the only one who finished ‘on time’ (8 semesters, double major, with honors) of the 4 of us that went to college.</p>
<p>The drama for our family was not so drawn out. It was only within a few days - parents came home, and a few days later sis, brother, and I were off to college. </p>
<p>jiminycricketk I may have said this earlier in this thread (I know I said it in a CC thread) your desire to study psychology may be based on figuring out people’s motivations and behaviors around you. After my first semester at college with my first psychology course, I knew I wanted to double major. As with many, my family was somewhat dysfunctional. My mom had a personality disorder, then later bipolar; she always tried to be a ‘good mother’ within her thoughts of what that was. The graduate educational opportunities I pursued were in business. Hang in with what you want and work it out the best you can. You do not have to give in at this point - get your dad traveling with you.</p>
<p>Oh, by the way, niece’s mother (BIL’s wife) was the only person in our extended families that is a match for my mother as far as being needy and having so many internal conflicts that caused this mother to create constant drama including divorcing BIL when kids were small. Very screwed up gal who created a lot of pain. Although my mother was mentally ill and very difficult for my dad and my family, my mother (although narcissistic) was not this selfish because deep down she saw her role as being a good wife and mother. I see the psychology study connection with niece and me.</p>
<p>Wow, there is alot here. I’ll limit myself to a couple brief comments.
<p>Op,
I have not read every post so I apologize if this is off base because of intervening posts. My impression is that u live in Manhattan, are Asian, don’t qualify for fin aid, whose parents will pay for college, but will kind of gripe about it and would prefer that you pay them back in the future, who feel that IU is too rural and too white. is this close?</p>
<p>My thoughts:
<ol>
<li><p>Definitely plan a visit for both you and your dad. Nothing else would be better to really find out the situation</p></li>
<li><p>Some people have a rather NYC-centric view of the US. When my inlaws, who live in NY, had to relocate to Portland Oregon, they felt like there were not going to even be phones in OR and that it would be so remote and backwards. To their shock and delight, they actually loved OR. So your parent may have some biases may or will be proven incorrect.</p></li>
</ol>
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<p>I am not telling you that psych is a low paying major because I am worried that your family won’t like it. I am telling you because you are not positioning yourself to make enough money to pay your parents back for any of the options on the table. Your parents may know a lot of people, but they probably can’t conjure a job for someone who is unqualified to work in the fields they currently work in. If your parents want to teach you about “the real world”, they should be helping you evaluate the probably pay scale for your chosen major, and choose a college accordingly if you are truly on the hook for the cost.</p>
<p>Op,
I have read a bit more of this thread.
So, your parents prefer Syracuse because it is higher ranked on USNWR and you prefer IU because it is cheaper. Is this correct? What about majors, campus life, etc? Have you visited both? I would write down a pros and cons list of each place. Really study the list yourself to objectively decide which might be the best college for you. Then show your pro/con list to your dad and explain each point.</p>
<p>Also, Asian (Chinese specifically) parents tend to gripe about the money thing and continually hold it over their kids’ heads. As a single child, the reality is that they will not ask for payment back from you. They will just complain about it during your 4 years in college (and possibly, but not likely, longer). You can tell them now that they are giving you mixed signals by insisting that you SHOULD pay for it (which makes you want to choose the cheapest route because you are looking at self-preservation) and by them wanting you to go to the more expensive school. </p>
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<p>Syracuse used to have a much stronger academic reputation back in the '70s and before according to many older neighbors and relatives in the tri-state area. </p>
<p>However, it seems to have had a serious decline in its academic reputation during the '80s onward. With the exception of some strong programs, Syracuse didn’t really stand out from NY’s public colleges by the time I was in HS in the early-mid '90. </p>
<p>I don’t know about now…but it was much easier to gain admission to Syracuse with lower stats than the higher SUNYs…especially Binghamton back when I was attending a public magnet HS in NYC in the mid-'90s. </p>
<p>Whenever the topic of Syracuse came up among HS classmates and parents, it was often in the context of students arguing to go because of Syracuse’s big sports/spirit rep and parents refusing because they didn’t see it as a great value worth spending the money considering the expense, party school rep, and its perceived average at best academic reputation by many NYC area parents…regardless of race/ethnic background. </p>
<p>jiminycricketk,</p>
<p>I commend you for the aplomb and grace you have shown throughout this thread. You are clearly a thoughtful and intelligent person. </p>
<p>Obviously money is not the real issue if your dad almost refused to fill out the FAFSA. You should not worry about money – except do not take out any student loans! You probably did not need to fill out the FAFSA anyhow.</p>
<p>Frankly, I think that you should simply stand your ground and go to IU. Syracuse is not superior to IU in any particular way. It is absolutely true that many people in NYC think that there are not any good universities between Philly and Stanford. These people simply do not know what they are talking about. Plus, such people get very competitive about which colleges their kids go to.</p>
<p>Final thoughts… all of the schools you applied to were fairly large except Tulane (which is a favorite of mine). If it turns out that you find IU to be too big for you, then consider transferring to a small liberal arts college. I can think of a few good ones:</p>
<p>Kenyon College in Ohio
Centre College in Kentucky (that would freak your parents!)
St. John’s College in Maryland
St. Lawrence University in NY
Bates College in Maine</p>
<p>There are many more which are excellent too. Personally, I am a big fan of small colleges. Some of the best colleges in American are unknown to most people (including educated people).</p>