Coronavirus May 2020 - Observations, information, discussion

[Mwfan1921]

@katliamom

@MarylandJOE

Why not open up low risk businesses and activities? We cannot stay locked in for a year or more

No one in this country has been truly “locked in”. There ARE business that are operating, people can go to different types of stores, there is no curfew, you can ride bikes, take walks, see friends - while staying 6’ apart - all without breaking SAH regulations of most communities. In many areas you can even hike or swim.

I don’t buy it that we’ve suffered greatly from being “locked in.” We’ve suffered economically, but that’s a different story.

I don’t think economic suffering is different than any other…it is known that economic downturns increase mental health problems and the suicide rate. Substantial job displacement is also tied to a higher mortality rate…current number of unemployed is over 30 million. Stop and process that number, 30 million of around 160 million who are in the workplace can’t earn a living.

Moving on, I don’t understand how one can judge that others have not ‘suffered greatly from being locked-in’. Being locked in has increased suffering in many areas, to name just a few:

-Increased rates of anxiety and depression of all ages. Aside from an increase in pharmaceutical treatment prescribing, when all is said and done we will likely see higher suicide rates, more substance abuse, long-term mental health issues, inability to hold a job, relatively lower academic performance, etc.

—45% of adults say their mental health has been negatively impacted during covid-19 isolation. https://www.kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/the-implications-of-covid-19-for-mental-health-and-substance-use/

—In China, a study of 2nd-6th graders showed 22.6% had depression, 18.9% anxiety. https://www.contagionlive.com/news/covid-19-isolation-pediatric-anxiety-depression

-Some current patients with serious diseases have not been able to get their chemo treatments regularly, or dialysis, or even be able to see their docs.

-Ultimately there will be missed diagnoses of diseases, and because these people started late treatments, all will suffer, and some won’t recover.

–Rates of domestic and child abuse are increasing. Many health and social service organizations are reporting increases in cases since SIP began…up 20% in Connecticut, to cite just one of the hundreds of articles detailing these issues.
https://healthnewshub.org/health-news-hub/top-news/domestic-violence-spikes-during-covid-19-how-to-get-help/

Seems like a lot of suffering is in fact happening during the lock-down.

[emilybee]

Because they weren’t allowed to eat inside a McDonald’s they shot the employees. SMH

https://www.koco.com/article/suspects-in-custody-after-2-employees-shot-at-mcdonalds-in-southwest-okc-police-say/32395365#

[Empireapple]

Yesterday NYS Governor Cuomo shared at his presser the shocking news that 68% of hospital admissions are coming from people at home. That’s right…not hospital workers, grocery clerks, homeless or other essential workers but people who have been stying at home. Even the governor said this was absolutely shocking.

So…maybe we don’t know as much as we thought about social distancing and this virus.

[suzyQ7]

@austinmshauri

I personally hate the spyware and set every settings to protect myself but will enthusiastically sign up for this app to keep myself and others safe. It’s a sacrifice.

So your reasoning is that because some companies sneak things into their products in an attempt to spy on us that justifies giving up our right to privacy? It’s a sacrifice to give up a right thousands and thousands of Americans have fought to give us? What they did for us is a sacrifice. That’s not the term I’d use for your proposal.

They don’t sneak it in, its right there in the terms of service of almost every app on your phone including google. We’ve all agreed to it - they can read your texts, check your location, read your contacts on your phone etc. You have no privacy if you have a smartphone.

[roycroftmom]

That seems to suggest that exposure to this virus is indeed inevitable for all of us, and most will be fine but some will have complications and require hospitalization.

[sdl0625]

@momzilla2D

I’m retired and financially able to stay-at-home indefinitely. MA still has too much covid activity at this time, to start reopening. I’m fine with SAH here.

BUT, I am in favor of reopening gradually in states where covid activity is much lower.

I have family in MS and here’s what I’m seeing there.

• MS shut down before seeing many positive cases(~100) but also likely not enough testing.
• They were told the the SAH was to “flatten the curve”. But the curve never materialized.
• Even as testing ramped up, positive cases and deaths stayed very low. (a good thing)
• Hospitals in MS were never overwhelmed.
• Meanwhile, thousands of people lost their jobs and/or businesses.
• According to CDC criteria, it’s too soon to reopen. Nat’l media is critical of reopening.
  
• People have lost trust in the CDC, media, government, health officials.
• Numbers continue to rise in other parts of the country.
• Rumors that doctors are being pressured to call any death, a covid death, as states look back and increase their death counts by adding in “presumed” cases (never tested but covid like symptoms).
• Just as MS is about to reopen, there’s a “surge” in cases (+10 deaths), which turns out to be a testing backlog. People are suspicious of the timing.
• They are not seeing much covid activity in their area, and are suspicious that numbers are inflated in other parts of the country.
• Meanwhile, thousands of people are still without their jobs and/or businesses. They don’t want unemployment. They want their jobs. They don’t want to lose businesses they worked hard to build.
• It’s becoming very hard for people to continue to buy in to this SAH.

Maybe cases will increase when MS starts to reopen. Maybe not.
If covid cases do increase, maybe there will be more buy-in to SAH. Maybe not.

Not to get too political, but suffice to say, they believe the fear is being manufactured for political reasons. Not sure they’ll ever trust anything related to COVID-19.

THIS! We were told, SAH, SIP, and if we follow the rules in about a month, then all will be good. So we listened. But there was essential workers. And people needed food and other supplies. Even in Italy/Spain and countries with tighter lockdowns their curve has gone down, but not away. In some places even with SIP/SAH the curve has not gone down, likely due to increased testing, but the hospitals except for in NY for a while were not overwhelmed. Places here in South. Florida was told they were going to be a disaster. So now many people are questioning everything . I feel lucky to be in GA, despite everyone saying “too soon”. We have choice. The numbers seem to be steady if nothing else here. There are hotspots that are popping up , in one county that has meat processing plant for example. STill hotspots in low income areas. The younger people are getting restless the most , the ones in their early 20’s. They are socializing more. They could be the asymptomatic spreaders. But for the most part people are SD when going to these businesses that are open. Or even to the restaurants. Nail/Hair salons are taking more precautions than they did in early March/Feb. So we have learned lessons, so I think in many areas after 6 weeks people are doubting SIP/SAH. Cases are still on the rise and we did all this. So “whats the point” is going through many peoples minds.

I see both sides on my FB. I see people who are saying, please everyone lets all stay home longer. Lets beat this. (but could we?) and from the other side, enough is enough, lets open up smartly. the Country is divided, just as it was during the last election. Its sad but true.

[suzyQ7]

@Iglooo

Read a big city in the east coast spent $5M to prepare for the “surge”. They got total of 14 patients and now closing it down. $5M came from cutting off art and culture funding in the city.

Sometimes that happens when you prepare. Would it have been better to not spend the money to be prepared, have a surge, and have people die in the hallway of the hospitals? They can’t win one way or the other.

We are an ungrateful and divided country and if this virus turns even more political, our democracy will be in serious trouble. We’re at the breaking point here.

[CTTC]

Interesting that covid-19 survivors will not be able to enlist in the military. So I guess all of the sailors on those ships that got infected (and other military members) will be honorably discharged with permanent disability pay?

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/05/06/coronavirus-survivors-banned-from-joining-the-military/

[MaineLonghorn]

@suzyQ7

@austinmshauri

I personally hate the spyware and set every settings to protect myself but will enthusiastically sign up for this app to keep myself and others safe. It’s a sacrifice.

So your reasoning is that because some companies sneak things into their products in an attempt to spy on us that justifies giving up our right to privacy? It’s a sacrifice to give up a right thousands and thousands of Americans have fought to give us? What they did for us is a sacrifice. That’s not the term I’d use for your proposal.

They don’t sneak it in, its right there in the terms of service of almost every app on your phone including google. We’ve all agreed to it - they can read your texts, check your location, read your contacts on your phone etc. You have no privacy if you have a smartphone.

Any CC moderator can tell you that very few people read the Terms of Service. If you quote a section to an offender, the response is always, “Well, nobody reads THAT!” Uh, well, you probably should read what you agree to when you sign up for something. Or at least not complain when you’re held to the rules.

[Empireapple]

@roycroftmom That seems to suggest that exposure to this virus is indeed inevitable for all of us, and most will be fine but some will have complications and require hospitalization.

That is exactly what I am beginning to think.

[cap]

I saw a map of states opening this morning. I’m in MD, the states around us are opening. So people are just going to drive to VA or PA to do stuff. It seems at that point, we might a well open up and keep the tax dollars in state. I’m sure glad I’m not the one who has to make these decisions.

[roycroftmom]

The current COVID-19 chart has been revised to show more data. Interesting that in some states ( California, North Carolina, Georgia,) testing was able to keep up with the suspected number of cases quite well, but in others (NY, NJ) testing was completely inadequate. Did some states just have better access? Tests made in state?

I expect some of the debate on here reflects the differences in testing experiences. In my area, we can get tested easily, and of those tested, only 10% are testing positive for COVID (recognizing that the tests are often wrong). The testing mantra seems more popular from NY, which apparently has 10 or 20 times as many cases,as tests.

[evergreen5]

We cannot eradicate the virus via social distancing. We can only delay/slow spread until better data (the questions listed upthread are critical) and treatments become available.

I think contact tracing is only likely to be useful in sparsely-infected areas at best. For urban centers in the Northeast, the horse is out of the barn.

On an encouraging note, I’m still hopeful on the treatment end, particularly about ivermectin (cheap, widely available, oral, relatively safe from what I understand). In case anyone missed it, the study I posted yesterday: “The administration of ivermectin during COVID-19 illness in hospitalized patients is associated with a lower mortality and hospital length of stay.” https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3580524 There are a number of new trials underway on this, in India, Egypt, Japan, and the US. Dose seems to be the big question, so I would expect it’ll take some time to figure out the optimal dose and how much a dose at the current standard level helps. Perhaps that latter question can be answered relatively soon.

I hate this feeling of working against the clock, needing answers ASAP for college campus opening decisions.

[ucbalumnus]

@CTTC

Interesting that covid-19 survivors will not be able to enlist in the military. So I guess all of the sailors on those ships that got infected (and other military members) will be honorably discharged with permanent disability pay?

Coronavirus survivors banned from joining the military

Could also be a problem if students in the military service academies or ROTC get COVID-19.

[emilybee]

@Empireapple

Yesterday NYS Governor Cuomo shared at his presser the shocking news that 68% of hospital admissions are coming from people at home. That’s right…not hospital workers, grocery clerks, homeless or other essential workers but people who have been stying at home. Even the governor said this was absolutely shocking.

So…maybe we don’t know as much as we thought about social distancing and this virus.

They still had to be exposed to someone - likely someone in their home who is out and about - whether as an essential worker, the person in households tasked with doing errands, etc, the person bringing them their groceries, etc.

I also believe there are people here who believe they are staying home but they really aren’t. They are going to the market and running other errands. They are around a lot of people not wearing masks. Just read this thread for proof of that. They are sitting in circles in the middle of the street having happy hour with their neighbors (6 ft apart and without masks) and think that is social distancing.

[Mwfan1921]

They are sitting in circles in the middle of the street having happy hour with their neighbors (6 ft apart and without masks) and think that is social distancing.

Why is this not social distancing? It meets the definition of CDC, and many states.

[evergreen5]

@momzilla2D

• Just as MS is about to reopen, there’s a “surge” in cases (+10 deaths), which turns out to be a testing backlog. People are suspicious of the timing.

I noticed this happened in our state and in a few others, weirdly on the same day. At least the back-dating was discussed in the local news, but for example the IHME model shows on that date a giant spike of newly-reported past deaths, not the actual deaths on that date. In other words, the depiction of the spike on the chart is false. It was merely the date the past data was released, after the health dept began sifting through old records to add probable, non-tested covid deaths to the data. By the way, the state is public about the addition of “probable” covid even though that casts doubt on the quality of the data, to put it kindly.

[roycroftmom]

@emilybee if one can get infected staying at home and getting groceries delivered, (as I think is likely), then this virus really is inevitable for all of us. People need to eat. It is not physically possible to have no contact with another human unless you are alone on a farm raising your own food.

[emilybee]

@Mwfan1921

Because if you look at the “cloud” of what comes out of your mouth, even when talking, -it’s clear (at least to me) that 6 ft isn’t nearly far enough. That’s why when my neighbor and I meet for happy hour we are at least 30ft apart.

Yes, it meets the regulations but it doesn’t appear to be based on any science that I know of.

[emilybee]

@cap

I saw a map of states opening this morning. I’m in MD, the states around us are opening. So people are just going to drive to VA or PA to do stuff. It seems at that point, we might a well open up and keep the tax dollars in state. I’m sure glad I’m not the one who has to make these decisions.

That’s why states should be working in regional coalitions.

It’s also why states shouldn’t be skipping steps.