In one grocery store that I have bought groceries at, many of the employees (particularly the checkers who probably have the highest exposure risk) were wearing both masks and face shields.
Yes, the N95 masks with outlet valves intended for those working in dusty conditions (e.g. construction or demolition) are protective of the wearer but not others, so their use is discouraged, or it is recommended to put another mask over the valve.
Health care workers in high risk situations would wear N95 masks without outlet valves; these masks protect both the wearer and others. However, these can be in short supply, need to be fitted properly to get the intended protection, and can be more uncomfortable to wear than other masks.
Other masks (surgical or home made cloth) are more protective of others than for the wearer.
I do believe some of the harsher shutdowns were a panic reaction, may have been overkill and may have contributed to indoor spread among families in high density living situations. I read “experts” (not sure what specialty exactly, virologists or epidemiologists) opining that somewhere on the scale between the liberal Swedish model and the Wuhan full lockdown might have been the Goldilocks way. That it may have been the social distancing that was most crucial (no parties, bars, multi household restaurant visits, religious services and celebrations, business and leisure travel) and that face mask use should never have been discouraged.
It’s both encouraging and discouraging. Production and retail can probably go on with physical distancing, ventilation and face masks, some people still shielding at home. They will need to solve the pesky problem of meat plants which appear to be hotspots everywhere, and of public transport in cities. That one i believe we nord. to look to Asia for. For schools we may need to look to Scandinavia, Sweden has never shutdown K to 9 education (and appears to believe it hasn’t contributed to their problematic death rate), Denmark has I believe fully reopened. Can’t think of other countries who have full opening of schools. Asia, again, maybe?
Higher education has its own thread, it’s res life and cultural life that is most threatened there. In some ways a microcosm: it’s the threats social lives and cultural lives that still appear to be most at risk.
Milestone celebrations, religious celebrations, communal dining, choirs and orchestras, theatre, dance, team sports, tourism…all of it not essential in a way, but people CARE about it, it’s what makes us human. They are all at risk of becoming super spreader events now. Can we all learn to conduct the essential bits of life (work, school, shopping, commuting) in ways that suppress the virus so much that we can risk the non essential fun again? And let the shielders take part again, too?
This may be for years.
This is what I mean:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/22/family-celebrations-send-parts-of-australia-back-into-coronavirus-restrictions
https://jeffreytucker.me/smart-society-stupid-people/
"For all of recorded history, humans have done a deadly dance with viruses. Measles, smallpox, polio, and influenza viruses changed the course of human history: Measles and smallpox killed hundreds of thousands of Native Americans; polio killed and crippled people, including US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt; and the 1918 influenza epidemic killed more people than were killed during all of World War I.
For most viruses that attack humans, your only defenses are prevention and your own immune systems. Antibiotics don’t kill viruses, and scientists haven’t discovered many effective antiviral drugs.
Vaccines are little pieces of bacteria or viruses injected into the body to give the immune system an education. They work by ramping up your own defensive system so that you’re ready to fight the bacteria or virus upon first contact, without becoming sick first. However, for some viral diseases no vaccines exist, and the only option is towait uncomfortably for your immune system to win the battle.
A virus is not a miasma, a cootie, or red goo like in the children’s book Cat in the Hat. There is no path toward waging much less winning a national war against a virus. It cares nothing about borders, executive orders, and titles. A virus is a thing to battle one immune system at a time, and our bodies have evolved to be suited to do just that. Vaccines can give advantage to the immune system through a clever hack. Even so, there will always be another virus and another battle, and sothousands of years. "
It’s a longer read but basically it boils down to we have damaged our economy with a huge shutdown and the virus isn’t going anywhere.
Me, neither. Supposedly nearly half of the population has blood pressure issues. I’ve seen no explanation as to why bp is no longer on the risky conditions list on the CDC website. I mentioned it to add an interesting (to me) piece of how schools (and other places of employment) can point to its non-inclusion on that CDC list as being a reason employees may not stay home.
Perhaps if nearly half of the population has BP issues but only a small percentage of the population with BP issues has a severe covid-19 reaction, there isn’t really a direct correlation to that particular “risk” factor?? Perhaps other health concerns they also have are the real issue
Hmmmm, just thinking about these ventilated masks and wondering if it’s time for a paradigm shift.
So far, I’ve been happily wearing my fabric masks, and to me it feels good to know I am acting as a protector of others. I am baffled at the people unwilling to wear masks, at the selfish nature of that and agree with the prior post indicating it is a teensy tiny price of discomfort to pay for a potentially enormous benefit of saving lives.
However, they do seem to engender so much anger. Mask-wearers furious at non-mask-wearers. Non-mask-wearers furious at the notion of being “forced” to wear them, etc.
As much as I like the notion of living in a society which cares about others, maybe it’s time to switch to everyone who wants to be protected, wear a ventilated N95 mask. Then no one has to be angry with anyone else. The truly selfless people will still cover the valve or wear non-ventilated masks, which should be still be encouraged to reduce overall spread. But if people are able to protect themselves, they don’t have to be so angry at others.
I suppose if there are just so few people who are worried enough to even protect themselves with a N95 ventilated mask, then the issue is spread will still be rampant and the hospital systems overwhelmed. But on message boards like this, it does seem like there are a lot of worried people who I think would wear masks designed to protect themselves. So if we can get production up, maybe it’s better that masks protect the wearer vs masks protect others???
Gotta say, just reading the url he chose… can’t say I think he’s as smart as he thinks he is. It doesn’t matter what’s actually written. I’ve no desire to read it.
Anyone who advertises that he’s the cat’s meow and everyone else is beneath him isn’t anyone I feel is worthy of my time. I know a couple of people like that IRL and they certainly aren’t folks I admire or think are intelligent.
It’s the title of his column that he wrote. He writes many columns. I’m sure there are a few with names people can agree upon and a few they won’t. It’s not the end of the world if someone chooses not to read it and see what it actually says in the body.
Back from running an errand where I sent my D16 more masks. She recently moved to Seattle and was happy to report that the mask-wearing compliance there was way higher than what we currently have in Northeast Ohio. Both of the postal workers were not wearing masks.
Interesting discussion with my D yesterday that some summer sleepaway camps may not survive after this. Its hard to believe that camps that have been around for 40/50 years or more , were hanging annually by a thread. She also said that there are camps that use other facilities and even though they did not happen this summer, the still had to “pay the bills”. I read more about camps that are family run and also dont know if they will ever come back., over one summer.
One camp is running and so far I have not heard of any outbreaks. Thunderbird in the Carolinas. They are going on week 3. My D is going to be working at a daycamp starting next week. this likely will help schools look into K-12 in the fall . I really think K-5 based on Denmark and other countries is very low risk. It seems the higher in age you go, the more likely the spread (such as high schools?).
Well I just read the entire article cited and then read the Wikipedia article about the author. I personally don’t have much confidence in his ability to intelligently evaluate the COVID-19 situation and given his political agenda, I wouldn’t be inclined to respect his opinions on the way forward. I’m not a huge fan of everything Bill Gates does, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that he understands a pandemic situation far better than Mr Tucker.
Agree. And this is completely unrelated to shutdowns. If everyone would wear a mask, radical shutdowns would not be necessary. But you know, “freedoms”…
I agree about the summer camps.
I know at least one camp in Maine is open, as a friend’s kid is there, as a counselor.
Also, a camp I think in Michigan has transitioned from a kids’ sleep away camp to a ‘family’ camp, my friend’s son is a counselor there and leaves this weekend for 10 weeks!
[quote=“catahoula, post:2378, topic:2096313”]
Do you REALLY think so? You saw what happened in March and April and how much spread there was already in the communities where the virus hit, do you really think that if the government hadn’t imposed stay at home orders the economy would be fantastic? Can we be real? The government didn’t shut down the NBA, the NBA shut down the NBA. Between that and closing the borders, all states woke up to the fact that the virus was here, even though we had not testing or numbers to prove it. Do you think people would have kept going out and about if the government hadn’t done SAH?
I’m just wondering when this narrative will go away. We will absolutely have 200k deaths from this virus, and if we are not super super luck with a vaccine by January it will be alot more. At what death count will you say, “maybe the SAH orders in March and April were a good idea since we would have overrun our heath system with all those deaths at once”.
Jeffrey Tucker is (quoting Wikipedia) “an advocate of anarcho-capitalism and Bitcoin, a publisher of libertarian books, a conference speaker, and an internet entrepreneur.” Not who I would go to for advice for either understanding how viruses work or how our economy is best served.
As long as people refuse to wear masks and/or refuse to social distance, the virus will spread uncontrollably. It’s that simple. And because of people’s refusal to do those things, the economy will get worse.
It’s completely up to people what the outcome will be.
But you already said that you think the SAH was the right call back in March and April, didn’t you? So why blame the damage to the economy on the SAH orders? I will continue to ask people who push this narrative, do you think our economy would be rolling forward if there were no SAH orders in March and April with exponential spread and deaths, overrun hospitals, and no testing? Remeber, the government didn’t shut down the NBA, the NBA shut down the NBA - this is an example of what businesses do to protect themselves.
The virus damaged our economy, not the shutdown.
Please see Brazil and Sweden’s economies for examples.
If we had a nationwide simultaneous lockdown with consistency and enforcement for a few weeks in March, we wouldn’t have the economic damage, or the high number of deaths, or the still-rising number of cases in many parts of the country.