<p>We have 2 sons in college, one at Dartmouth and one at the University of Texas at Austin. We pay for both of them to be in a fraternity. Both our sons have thoroughly enjoyed their involvement and the making of lifelong friends and connections. They both have high GPA’s and know we wouldn’t support being in a fraternity if it affected their grades. We had some reservations about it, but it has turned out to be a positive experience for both, and a part of their overall college experience. We would not have done it, however, if it strained our finances. I believe it is a personal decision for every family, with a lot of factors to consider.</p>
<p>We pay D’s sorority costs ($3000) for the year (for dues,panhellanic, social fee, initiation fee, new member fee, one-time housing/furnishing fee, parlor fee, mandatory dinner meal plan). If she chose to live in the house, it would cost us an additional $4050 for the year (but she is not living in the house). We are completely supportive of her and glad that she found a niche and is happy.</p>
<p>Opie,</p>
<p>I feel embarrased for you for making such ridiculous comments. At what point in life do I become a big boy? Are you serious? Listen, its one thing if your parents just say “no” and you get stuck paying your dues, but if your parents can’t afford to pay your dues, I think theres better things to do with your money than be in a frat. Maybe you don’t live in the real world, or don’t love your parents, or don’t appreciate the cost of sending a kid to college, but I would never have joined a fraternity and spent my money on it if I knew the 1000, 2000, whatever amount of money I’m spending on it could be used to take some pressure of my ‘rents’ back. </p>
<p>Also, at my school–being in a fraternity is exceptionally more expensive than not being in one.</p>
<p>My parents and I split my dues. They are $650 a year (not including room and board.) Me, my mom, and my dad (divorced) each pay about $215. I live in my chapter house, and room and board is cheaper than living in a dorm, so they don’t mind kicking in for dues. I pay for all my extras though-letter shirts, gifts for my little, t shirts for my formal date, etc. I also have to earn at least a 3.25 GPA for them to pay. I think it’s a pretty good system, personally!</p>
<p>Actually jags I’m a parent and I found your comment totally offensive. You labeled a whole bunch of kids you’ve never met as lesser people because of their parents income level. </p>
<p>Mine paid his own way to belong to a frat, his choice. He did the research, made the choice and it turned out to be a great experience for him. He made a grown up decision, took a risk and it turned out for him. I respect that. </p>
<p>I don’t respect someone telling somebody if mommy and daddy can’t buy it, forget it. You forgot the old saying if you want something strongly enough, you’ll work to get it. He did. That’s far more respect worthy than bagging an idea cause mommy and daddy didn’t want to pay for it. </p>
<p>I put myself through college by working 45 hours a week when I was your age. Should I have just bagged it because my parents couldn’t afford to buy me college? </p>
<p>By the way how you take pressure off your parents back is by taking on responsibilities and showing you can handle the extra effort involved to have a little extra. I didn’t begrudge my kid by working for something he wanted. No refunds required, rather watching him set a goal and work towards it is worth more than any money I provided. </p>
<p>I apologize for being so harsh but if you reread your first post and comments, I think you’ll see how much of a cheap shot that sounds like.</p>
<p>The decision of whether parents pay or whether student pays is up to the family. There is no moral imperative involved- it’s just a personal decision, just like the decision of whether to give your child a car, pay for his trip to Rome, or even pay for this college over than college. No “right or wrong”. </p>
<p>It sounds like some posters don’t think like the idea of joining a greek organization period, and that’s fine. If I didn’t want my kids to belong to a fraternity, I would tell them so. They wouldn’t join one if they knew we did not want them to. There have been various times when we have not wanted our children to purchase a certain item or service, even though they had their own money to do so, and they didn’t.</p>
<p>Doubleplay.
Wow - maybe I did something wrong but my kid doesn’t always do what I want him to do. I didn’t want him to join a fraternity. But he did and he’s paying for it. He can afford it - he’s worked for many summers in a row and saved his money.<br>
Overall, he reports it’s been a positive experience so I’m warming a little bit. But it was his choice - not ours.</p>
<p>toneranger,
Nope, Not saying you did something wrong. It’s your decision as a parent whether or not to pay, it’s your son’s decision whether or not to pay if you don’t pay. </p>
<p>I think sometimes people make a moral issue out of whether we should or shouldn’t pay for this or that, or whether kids should do what we say, even when they’re adults. I don’t judge people’s purchasing decisions.</p>
<p>I was commenting about our relationship when I talked about whether my son would buy something he knew I was against. If my son wanted to buy, say, a motorcycle (motorcycles scare me to death and I’ve always begged my kids not to drive them), I would try to talk him out of it. Not that there’s something wrong with motorcycles, or immoral about driving one- it’s just my own personal angst. Clearly, if he had the money and bought one anyway, there’s nothing I can do about it, and I wouldn’t disown him or anything. And I don’t mean to suggest that it would be “wrong” for him to buy a motorcycle. But knowing my son, he probably would not if he knew that I was that anxious about it.</p>
<p>
Personally I see that as a good thing (not that I want it to happen all the time)</p>
<p>Doubleplay - Regarding your motorcycle comment, how would you feel if your kid told you he had gone skydiving but didn’t want to tell you until after he did it. That’s what my son did when he was almost 20 and living in a distant city for a summer internship :eek:</p>
<p>Motheroftwo,
Back in high school, my son once took his gf and her little sis out on the lake in a raft. They stopped at a little island out in the middle and as a joke, gf got in raft and started paddling away. Little did she know that she couldn’t control the raft and ended up beached. Son had to swim across the lake (more like a big pond) which has gators in it (not to mention other slimy creatures). He told me later and I just about died! I don’t really like the idea of them canoeing around in the pond to begin with, but swimming?!@!</p>
<p>Perhaps it would be better if we didn’t hear at all about these dangerous “adventures” that fortunately ended without any serious damage, either before or after they happened !!!</p>
<p>Old joke - Jewish telegram: Start worrying! Details to follow.</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread – I have a similar issue with my D who plays on a traveling athletic ‘club’ team; the hopes are the sport will go varsity but in the meantime, we’ve been asked to pay $1000 to help with the team’s expenses. I’m torn. On one hand, the sport has really enhanced D’s college experience. On the other hand – a THOUSAND dollars ???</p>
<p>My husband and I did not really approve of our son joining a frat, so we have offered no money. It would be specious however to pretend that his frat membership will cost us nothing…he spends his summer earned savings as he also has no allowance from us. He doesn’t have a car and doesn’t really have the money to maintain one yet. We would rather spend money on study abroad opportunities than on wheels for now. I would like to have seen him saving summer earnings more carefully for his post dorm life…car, insurance, money to furnish something for his first job or grad school existance. We lived on nothing in grad school and without a car, and don’t think our son has a clue about what is coming re financial solvency on his own two feet. We know that some parents can afford to help their children set up post college, but we will not be able to do a lot of that.<br>
However, we concede that he made a carefully thought out choice re joining his frat, he loves his brothers and his semi-family living arrangement, and he gets a lot of fun, fellowship and even good academic examples and support in his frat and that it is possible we are wrong to have hoped he would skip the whole enterprise. His frat seems to have played a positive role in his ability to cope with a challenging college.
Re the dues? I don’t judge the way any family really handles it. We are ambivalent, so our policy on this has been wishy washy. We actually admit that his frat friends are largely very good examples and very much positive energy in his life.<br>
I do however, think parents have in their job description bringing up young adults who can be self supporting and who can budget and who don’t display excessive entitlement attitudes. I just also concede that paying a child’s frat dues is not necessarily going to turn out an overly entitled young adult. So many factors come into play in parenting.<br>
So, as he faces graduation in less than two years, I may feel a little resentful at the smaller size of his savings account when he is 22 which may result in needing more help from us at first, but I can at the same time see that his frat increased his self-confidence, gave him lots of laughter to balance the grim study hours, backed him up when times were tough and taught him a few social skills that matter a lot. And to respond to katliamom’s related issue re 1000 dollars for an athletic team…perhaps we should as parents be not so grudging on these matters. I read about depressed, lonely college kids all the time and am grateful that my son calls a score of people in and out of his frat “friends.” Also, being physically active is so very important for mental health and for lifestyle choices. Katliamom, I would be inclined to support a club sports team. I see a huge upsurge in my son’s mental game when he is also working out with friends.</p>
<p>Fraternities can be a great experience if done correctly; a horrible experience if done incorrectly. They can be a great way to develop leadership skills, but just like any organization, sometimes the wrong people are in the leadership roles. When this happens, the fraternity goes downhill fast. This, in and of itself, can be a good learning experience, if a student isn’t already aware of the nuances and repercussions of good and bad leadership styles. It’s all in the management and membership, which goes back to recruitment. It’s hard to predict what kind of person someone will become just meeting them for the first time in the first week of their freshman year; the discernment is one of the hardest parts of the process for members.</p>
<p>When you put a whole bunch of young men in a group, a different dynamic forms. People do things together that they would never do alone. An activity that starts out relatively harmlessly can turn into a catastrophe, given certain conditions. Put the wrong person in charge, allow the wrong person to do something stupid, listen to the wrong advice, follow someone down the wrong path, and everyone suffers. It’s not good enough in a fraternity to have “some” good men, or even “mostly” good men. All it takes is a couple bad apples (and I’m not saying this in an elitist way- I’m talking about improper/irresponsible use of drugs, alcohol, improper treatment of young women, etc.) to spoil the bunch. That is a lesson that the young men have to learn- how to monitor their own.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, you raise an interesting point, and in the same token an interesting opportunity for a child to exercise maturity. You are absolutely correct in that sometimes the wrong person or wrong activity occurs. </p>
<p>Then the big thing is… how do they handle it? Not everything was peaches and cream in my S’s frat, but that was a good thing too. Problems to be solved, issues to deal with. How do they learn to handle it? Do they follow? do they quit? or do they lead? Do they learn dipolmacy? </p>
<p>We learn from difficulties, not success. </p>
<p>“That is a lesson that the young men have to learn- how to monitor their own.” </p>
<p>excellent point.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Faline2, it’s a sidetrack on this post but I wanted to pick this point up. I’ve been watching my D and her boyfriend as they both graduated college last June. He went immediately to grad school; she’s postponing for a gap year. As one criterion for choosing a grad school, he put “in a city with good public transportation.” In his field, he found ample choices in such locations, and now both are living their first year out of college without a car. Just feet, bikes, and busses. They are VERY happy with this decision, even proud on an ecological level, not to add to global warming, a rallying cry for their generation. </p>
<p>Am introducing this idea, because it’s not essential that a student own a car to be a grad student if he starts out his search for a public transpo city.</p>
<p>Back to the fraternity decision, well our S just called home that he was on TV last night because the ACLU’s defending their position that their unofficial fraternity should still be allowed to announce events with campus meeting point, or all wear T-shirts when on campus, as a matter of free speech. So these were “lessons” I didn’t expect him to encounter at age 17, but that’s fine. What a civics lesson! Definitely worth the dues.</p>
<p>Opie,
I see many issues relating to seniority and leadership, not just with fraternities either. It happens in all college organizations, whether greek, governmental, academic/music societies- you name it. The drinking issue comes about when 50% or more members and 100% of all leaders are of legal drinking age. This leads to situations where ages are mixed, half the group is legally consuming alcohol, and half can’t. Hmmmm. Pretty enticing situation; ripe for problems. This wasn’t an issue back when I was a student because for the most part, when you were in high school you were underage, and when you were in college you were legal. </p>
<p>It would be difficult to find a social fraternity that has not faced problems within its ranks- you are right, it’s the way they handle it that separates the men from the boys.</p>
<p>The drinking issue comes about when 50% or more members and 100% of all leaders are of legal drinking age. This leads to situations where ages are mixed, half the group is legally consuming alcohol, and half can’t.</p>
<p>doubleplay has hit on a reason that we probably hoped our son would skip the Greek scene…indeed, standing near a keg of beer with a red cup in hand was no crime in the 70s for the underclassmen. Worries were more about grass and drugs and things illegal like hard liquor. </p>
<p>Greeks today do have exactly this problem. The leadership can enjoy a beer legally, but the first and second years are breaking the law. Either way–party thrower or party attendee, you have potential for consequences.</p>