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<p>That first paragraph wasn’t really meant to be taken seriously. Hence the “Seriously though” in the next paragraph. </p>
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<p>I didn’t imply that. </p>
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<p>This paragraph gives the impression that he is a generic Ivy League hopeful; only numbers and nothing unique.</p>
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<p>What problem? That the average SAT score of Black applicants to HYP et al. is lower than the average Asian/White SAT score? The current discrepancy does not appear to significantly impact graduation rates.</p>
<p>SAT tests are a problem, I grant you that. Most likely, they will be abolished or revised in the near future, as apparently they discriminate in favor of Asians and Whites.</p>
<p>AeroEngineer,</p>
<p>My apologies.</p>
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<p>You asked us to imagine the student body of a school that accepted its students purely on stats. What is the context of our discussion? It is Li’s complaint against Princeton and his belief, shared by many, that race should play no role in admissions. It seemed to me that your example was designed to show why Li’s belief isn’t a good one. Did I understand your example incorrectly?</p>
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<p>Yeah, but this generic Ivy League hopeful was accepted by one Ivy League – Yale. Unless Yale sucks, a thought which seems to be shared by many Li bashers, he had something going for him other than numbers.</p>
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<p>I hope you dont think that SAT is the only area where there is a discrepancy between blacks and their peers. In 2001, only half of all black students earned a high school diploma. By comparison, seventy-five percent of all white students graduated along with seventy-seven percent of all Asian students. [url= <a href=“http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001959.html]Source[/url”>http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001959.html]Source[/url</a>]. Is that not a problem to you?</p>
<p>I never said that SAT tests are a problem, so please dont grant me something that I never mentioned nor agree with. I cant help but chuckle that SAT tests apparently discriminate in favor of Asians. Do Asians design these tests? Are Asians immune to the oarsman:regatta biases? Please enlighten me.</p>
<p>damn, man. Princeton should just stop receiving federal aid. it can well survive completely on its own and not have to put up with this anti-AA bullcrap and those lawsuits and federal investigations.</p>
<p>lol @ fabrizio</p>
<p>Different cultures, different mentalities. Most Asian parents care so much about their children becoming well-educated and successful that they are willing to blow thousands of dollars on SAT prep courses, even if they are living in the most abject poverty imaginable.</p>
<p>To those suggesting that the test discriminates in favor of whites and Asians, that is to suggest that peoples of European and Asian descent are somehow more American/better educated than peoples of African American or Hispanic descent.</p>
<p>Does anyone have any SAT statistics for Hispanic students? I wager the discrepancy is probably smaller. I wonder why.</p>
<p>Yes the SAT is the most racist test ever! The answer to every question is printed in a secret pamphlet only available in white and Asian neighborhoods. </p>
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<p>I took one of these courses and I can assure they are a complete waste of time. A student would be much better prepared for the exam by buying a 20 dollar Kaplan review book and spending time studying by himself. Of course that would require discipline and poor people can’t be blamed for not having it right. </p>
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<p>Again, how is the white man’s fault (or Asian man’s) that the black and hispanic communities value ‘street cred’ and ‘repping one’s hood’ over education and social mobility?</p>
<p>As I posted earlier, I also don’t understand why it’s so crazy to conclude that blacks score soooo much lower on standardized tests because, ON AVERAGE, they’re simply not as intelligent. The argument is as follows. It’s somewhat simple to project that because obvious physical differences amongst the races exist that so do intellectual ones. Different environments dictate how the human species changed after coming out of Africa. It’s not ludicrous to imagine the colder climates selected different mental capacities which still persist today. Clearly, blacks are more athletically inclined. It’s also interesting to note that separated black twins (one to white parents, one to black parents) score almost identically on IQ tests.</p>
<p>dontno:
while the test itself is not intentionally racist, psychological priming effects and stereotypes cause students to perform worse on tests where they’re prompted for their race. Minorities perform systemically worse because of priming.</p>
<p>But no, you say, minorities perform worse because they’re simply STUPIDER. The offensiveness of this is astounding, and it surprises me how you say this so self-righteously. They’re physically gifted, so that must take away from their intelligence, right? NO. According to most current theories, blacks tend to show greater genetic variation, meaning simply that while there will be extremely athletic black people, there will also be extremely unathletic black people. The same goes for their intelligence.
The only reason why they seem subpar in terms of our society is because of their comparison to other groups. Asian Americans are a relatively recent addition to the American population, and unlike the black population, those Asian Americans coming to the United States (for the most part, post 1900s) CHOSE to come here. They had the resources and motivation to move to a completely new country, and brought with them the values and culture of the countries they left behind. This included, of course, the idea of education as the way to advance in society. So the vast majority of East Asian immigrants here have an advantage in terms of education–lots of resources, plus a pro-education attitude. You can’t say that same selection process occurs for blacks (shipped here against their will during the times of slavery), Hispanics (takes few resources to move here, so there’s no selection whatsoever), South Asians (many as refugees), and so you notice a relative lack of focus on education. </p>
<p>I actually have to run now, but I fully intend to continue this discussion.</p>
<p>
If they are the most deserving candidates for those spots, why not?</p>
<p>before i was kinda just indifferent on this jian li issue but people on here are blowing this up into complete BS</p>
<p>while earlier i suggested that asian people such as myself just had to deal with it cuz that’s life, which is unfair, i can’t listen to these people saying affirmative action is fair and justified</p>
<p>Lets consider affirmative action:
<p>how do asians have more resources?</p>
<p>we live in the same country, we have the same rights, we get the same funding, we have access to the same cars…</p>
<p>this different values argument is total BS too, not to mention stereotyping like crazy: asian ppl dont value getting into the entertainment industry as much. should they get affirmative action there? should they get affirmative action into film school? NO, cuz if they are less qualified than the “talented black rapper”, than no they shouldnt get the job over the black dude (its common sense)</p>
<p>@ quirkily</p>
<p>Both James Watson (last year) and Francis Crick (much earlier), co-discovers of DNA, have expressed the hypothesis that evolutionary differences amongst the races are not confined solely to physical attributes. Why do you find this contention so offensive and, more importantly, illogical? </p>
<p>First off, I never made the following correlation. i was merely stating that blacks have increased ability, ON AVERAGE, in other areas.</p>
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<p>I do agree that priming has an affect. But it surely can not, under any circumstances, account for the HUGE gap between blacks and whites (let’s be honest: in America, it’s only those two races anyone wants to discuss). It’s also interesting to note that rich black students score lower than poor white students ([Standardized</a> Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps](<a href=“http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm]Standardized”>Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps), see figures 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 for similiar data regarding parental educational level). Now your argument is that blacks, at large, do not have strong parental support and cultural environments not conducive to educational success. So how does that account for the above data? I say the only reasonable answer is a distinct difference in innate intelligence.</p>
<p>Also, your whole bottom paragraph isn’t relevant. IQ scores are consistent worldwide (i.e. Africans scores worse than Europeans who scores worse than Asians).</p>
<p>There is no meaningful genetic differences in the so called races. No meaningful genetic differences in humans at all. Penguins with their 17 species for example have lots of differences that have been mapped, humans essentially none.</p>
<p>Before you begin my post, please forgive me if I misinterpreted your words, dontno.</p>
<p>“I say the only reasonable answer is a distinct difference in innate intelligence.”</p>
<p>I believe this is the first time in my life that I’ve ever said this. As a person who who has a black mother and brother, I am deeply offended by your comments.</p>
<p>By the way if you read the newspapers, Watson is quoted as saying “there is no scientific basis for such a belief.”</p>
<p>Also, I believe everyone is missing the true point of affirmative action. It’s to help the failing minority communities out, not to give people a leg up in admissions. Affirmative action has increased the number of minorities in government, management positions, and colleges. These are all things necessary to move these communities in the right direction. </p>
<p>I don’t understand how people can be so unsympathetic. Are they not part of America? Sure, some people must sacrifice some things to help them out, but in the end it is for the greater good and a better America.</p>
<p>hey misralz,
i know that this stuff gets offensive when yourself and one’s you love become labeled as inferior.</p>
<p>and you are 100% correct in saying that as of now there is no scientific basis for the belief that asians are smarter than other races…unfortunately, that is the stigma of asians, and the stigma of blacks</p>
<p>asian stereotypes:
Sound good: smart, intelligent
Sound bad: small (insert body parts), unathletic</p>
<p>black stereotypes:
Sound good: athletic, big (insert body parts)
Sound bad: less intelligent</p>
<p>there is no doubt that these are some of the most common stereotypes of both races and have become truth in many people’s minds</p>
<p>However, if you are one of those people that are willing to say blacks naturally have bigger (body part) than asians based on quantitative studies (i.e. measurements), or that they are more athletic based on the disproportionate amount of blacks in the NBA, then there is no way in hell you can say asians are not naturally smarter than blacks based on the disproportionate amount of Asians in higher level education and their achievements in grades and test scores and employment and pay, etc. without being a hypocrite</p>
<p>if however, you do not base your conclusions on these quantitative studies and do not believe blacks to be more athletic (as a race) than asians based on the disproportionate numbers in pro sports, then you have every right to be offended</p>
<p>personally, while i hate to think that there are genetic differences and would like to believe that asians are smaller due to worse nutrition in asia and blacks do not do as well educationally and financially due to a difference in values, i think that there is some merit in the genetic differences theory.</p>
<p>and to asnwer the second part of your post, yes i agree that AA may actually be a good thing in the long run (to be determined); however, i believe that people have to admit that AA is unfair to asians</p>
<p>also, its arguable whether things such as AA and welfare actually do help failing minorities; or do they just put these communities into deeper holes?</p>
<p>@ misralz:</p>
<p>Who says there isn’t a scientific basis? I think that race exists. I think, as everyone does, that physical differences exist between the races (skin tone, nose width, hair and eye color, average height, etc…). I think it’s rather simple to project that mental differences exist as well. The problem with this type of argument is that it offends people and the liberal thought police don’t want anyone to hear it. But, unlike other controversial issues like evolution, consciousness of aborted fetuses, etc…, science can’t definitively say what intelligence is. Intelligence is a nebulous topic and it’s, admittedly difficult to quantify. However, in the testing (SAT, IQ, ACT) that seems to test what is normally considered intelligence such as ability to reason, ability to understand and recognize patterns, ability to use and organize numbers, verbal ability, etc…, blacks do markedly worse than whites and Asians. I agree that environmental factors play a role in the gap, but I think it’s naive to think that such enormous differences can be attributed to upbringing. Especially, when data suggests that rich blacks of educated parents do worse than poor whites of uneducated parents. (([Standardized</a> Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps](<a href=“http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm]Standardized”>Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps), see figures 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 for similiar data regarding parental educational level)</p>
<p>Finally, you shouldn’t be personally offended by this. First off, this is not a condemnation of blacks as inferior, just less intelligent. More importantly, it involves AVERAGES!! I judge every black person I met on their individual merits and if you’re very intelligent, it doesn’t matter that you’re black. Average scores are merely about the entire group as an average, not a statement about every person in that group.</p>
<p>
Umm…Dude?
Have you studied US History yet?
Do you have any idea how whites have treated blacks in the past 300 years?
Do you have any idea how hard it was for many many many many many many blacks to even go to school? I’m pretty sure this may have had an influence on what many blacks have come to value today. Just a thought.
Do you think this is all lies?
Are you in denial?</p>
<p>Next time, please think before you post.
We’d all appreciate it.
Thank you. :)</p>
<p>of course there is a basis for AA today. the civil rights movement ended merely a generation or two ago. but sometime in the future it has to stop.</p>
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<p>That ironic comment is my LOL of the morning. For a more serious discussion of score gaps, from a variety of sound scholars who don’t all have the same point of view on the issue, see </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Black-White Test Score Gap: Christopher Jencks: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-Test-Score-Christopher-Jencks/dp/0815746091/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-Test-Score-Christopher-Jencks/dp/0815746091/)</p>
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