dartmouth vs. columbia (with a twist)

Parents Forum
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<p>John, Since you’re so close to the acceptance date, why don’t you put this anxiety on hold for a few weeks and see how things pan out? Sometimes decisions have a way of being made for us.</p>

<p>If you are accepted at both, I would go with what others have suggested and follow your heart to Dartmouth. My son attends Williams which, although smaller and more isolated than Dartmouth, is in the same geographic and cultural “neighborhood” and he loves the environment both natural and social. He has a good friend at Barnard whom he visits periodically and although he loves the city rush, he is always grateful to get back to sleepy, beautiful Williamstown.</p>

<p>If your parents have said that that the choice is up to you then believe them (and as Mini implies, Appreciate them!) Obviously they know your character and Columbia’s and probably agree that Dartmouth is a better fit for you. And the good news is once you’re in Hanover, you won’t require much spending money. At Williams the weekly average is $8.</p>

<p>Out of interest, what’s your worst case scenario? In the unlikely event that neither works out, what are your other choices?</p>

22

<p>Mini, your oft repeated ivy rant seems even more unjust in this case than most.</p>

23

<p>Really? Sorry! I actually like Columbia, and, for different reasons, I like Dartmouth. And I think you can get a GREAT education at both. I just don’t think they are comparable institutions (neither one being better than the other), and I really, really don’t think many folks would bother to compare them if they weren’t in the same football conference.</p>

<p>I have issues at the Ivies about whom is being offered the education, why they choose the way they do, and about what happens as a result of the student bodies they choose. In some cases, I have issues about the overuse of TAs, and large classes (but certainly nowhere near to the extent that I would about many state u.s/) I don’t have any doubt whatsoever that folks can get really terrific educations at all of them, certainly as good as that offered at 50-75 other institutions in the U.S., and for certain students in certain situations, oftne better. I don’t think of that as harsh; rather as complimentary.</p>

24

<p>Mini:</p>

<p>I have just heard from someone at Dartmouth: students have registered for a class to be taught in upcoming quarter. The class is full (capped at 55) and there is a 20+ person waiting list. No TA, of course. The other class is 35 and counting. Some students are complaining that it is getting hard to take classes in their major because of leaves and capped classes.</p>

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<p>So, as I said, you could attend Columbia, which has TAs, and may not have that problem, (but others attendant to TAs - I having been one), or Dartmouth, without them. (I truly don’t understand why a student paying $40k/year to attend one of these institutions with billion dollar endowments should really have to put up with either, and am glad there are other alternatives. Hey, that’s what makes a market!)</p>

<p>But I really did think I was being complimentary. I compared Dartmouth to Whitman, which is a wonderful school, with much greater name recognition and alumni networking where I live, and higher Ph.D. productivity rates than Dartmouth; I compared Columbia with the U.Chicago, which I attended, respect highly, and which also has higher Ph.D. productivity rates than Columbia. Four GREAT schools!</p>

26

<p>He’s not comparing them because they’re Ivies, he’s comparing them because he really wants to go to one and because his parents work at the other. The particulars of the schools don’t really matter.</p>

27

<p>That brings up an interesting point, Birdofprey, what if the schools were more “disparate” in terms of their “quality” …for example, if his parents worked at Skidmore( random example, no offense intended) and he wanted Dartmouth (with the same financial incentives). Or, the other way around, his parents worked at Columbia but he wanted Skidmore…how does this change the equation??</p>

28

<p>My d is absolutely delighted to be at a school (neither Columbia nor Dartmouth) to which, up until a couple of months before the deadline, she swore she would never apply. She realizes now that even after numerous visits she had been stereotyping its students. (She finally did apply because this was the only school that met her academic and EC criteria.) So I say…never say never!</p>

<p>Re Columbia students’ being “alternative,” I think you have to allow for the fact that they are in NYC and so they wear lots of black. However, Columbia/Barnard have a small but active frat/sorority scene. We went to quite a few student performances at the school and found audiences enthusiastic and the students very supportive of one another. In our many visits to campus we met quite a few suburban-looking students who were just thrilled with their courses and their opportunities. With two parents who work there, though, you have undoubtedly already been to Broadway shows, etc. </p>

<p>Especially given that your parents understand your feelings and wishes, by all means choose Dartmouth if you are admitted and enjoy your opportunities there. But you might experiment with letting your mind open to unknown possibilities between now and April. Good luck.</p>

29

<p>Dartmouth is having oversubscribed classes in government, particularly, that are getting a lot of press in the student news. There are 2 sides to every story, but I haven’t seen any responses from the admin - I’m getting a little “what in the world am I paying for” huffiness, but I don’t think DD is interested in government.</p>

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30

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<p>As you say, cangel, there are two sides to every story. There may be even more than two! </p>

<p>In bringing up the case of Dartmouth, I just wanted to challenge Mini’s oft-repeated perspectve on LAcs. LACs often face the same issue that Dartmouth currently has regarding government classes. I was using the Dartmouth example because it recently came to my attention; but my older S, at Wes, was shut out of a class that was capped at 35 in his senior year. I think he would rather have been in that class with a TA than in the class which he ended up taking and did not suit his interests or abilities at all. But he needed it to graduate.</p>

<p>If I had to choose between a large class with TAs or no class, or a class that I was totally uninterested in, I’d definitely choose the class with TAs. But the premise that the class without TA is superior to a class with TA may also be faulty. Who says that a class of 55 with no TA is better than a class of 55 with 3 TAs (at 18 students per section)? Can a prof with a class of 55 get to know his or her students all that well? My younger S has been delighted with his TAs AND has had plenty of interaction with his profs.</p>

<p>There are plenty of other reasons for wanting to choose Dartmouth over Columbia (and vice-versa). </p>

<p>Not in NYC but I wear black all the time.</p>

31

<p>“In bringing up the case of Dartmouth, I just wanted to challenge Mini’s oft-repeated perspectve on LAcs.”</p>

<p>I was never shut out of a class in my life, I was never in a class of anything close to 55 students, and last time I looked, Dartmouth wasn’t a LAC. Am I missing something?</p>

<p>(But to the OP, go to Dartmouth, if you get in. And thank your parents for the opportunity.)</p>

32

<p>Dartmouth does not have TAs and the classes are capped at 55 and there is a 20+ person waiting list for one I was told about. You went to college in the Dark Ages, Mini, as did I. My S#'s being shut out of a class in the last semester of his senior year happened last year. He’d applied only to LACs and Wes was the largest.
S#2 was in one class that had 60+ students and 4 TAs and another one that had 30 students and 2 TAs. Profs made themselves available at study groups and after class.</p>

33

<p>right now is neck and neck between Mini and Marite:</p>

<p>I’m waiting to hear from Sybbie on this one.</p>

34

<p>So what you’re saying is that universities with multi-billion dollar endowments, and LACs with smaller endowments, and one in the middle (Dartmouth) are not spending those endowments for the benefit of students wisely.</p>

<p>So why am I not surprised?</p>

35

<p>Ah, but that’s not what I was trying to argue, nor what the OP is concerned about.</p>

36

<p>Marite, I’m a little confused - was this a senior level class you son was shut out of, or a class that he wanted to take before graduation? I would think it might be hard to hve grad students TA the most advanced classes. Anyway, I haven’t really reasearched, but something you reported struck me - “The class is full (capped at 55) and there is a 20+ person waiting list. No TA, of course. The other class is 35 and counting.” - I presume you mean the other class is another section of the same, so maybe the first class has “the good prof” or isn’t at 9AM - all those things that make college students go for one section over another. I remember from college visits, the intro biology classes at Williams were around 80 and at Swat were about 100, although they were team taught at Swat. Davidson was the only school DD visited that was stuck to a cap of 30 - I suspect there was some getting shut out.</p>

<p>The problem with government at Dart is I guess that it is an essay class, unlike sciences - I don’t understand why they don’t throw aome money at the problem, at least to get through the acute oversubscription, you’s think it would only take 1-2 more classes, even though those would still be larger than optimum - maybe they’re trying.</p>

37

<p>9th round,
score: mini-103, marite-101 with no knock-downs.</p>

<p>…get out the smelling $alts</p>

38

<p>The kids I know who go to Columbia are not “alternative” whatsoever.
My nephew is there now, and he is more a “scholar-athlete” type, with very conventional attitudes. The people from my daughter’s school who have gone there the last few years have all been athletes. The unconventional types that applied were rejected. Maybe that’s all they’re looking for from my part of the country, I don’t know.</p>

39

<p>Hot off the press:</p>

<p>Columbia rejects unconventional types from monydad’s part of the country. lol</p>

40

<p>here is the article about the Government Gridlock:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2005022402010&sheadline=&sauthor=&stext=government[/url]”>http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2005022402010&sheadline=&sauthor=&stext=government&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Unfortunately, for many excited students wishing to take a government course in the next term,** their hopes are dashed as they are unable to gain enrollment into the class of their choice.** Chances are that you or someone you know can relate to this frustrating occurrence. <a href=“this%20can%20be%20all%20relative%20as%20some%20students%20like%20sticking%20to%20the%20M,%20W,%20F%20schedule%20and%20feel%20that%20a%20tues/thurs%20class%20will%20mess%20that%20up”>i</a>*</p>

<p>Understandably, some departments in the College have specific classes that are exceptionally popular and difficult to gain enrollment. However, students – seeking everything from introductory classes to upper-level courses – often experience aggravation at the seemingly systematic enrollment problems in the government department. Students hoping to plan out their future government course load over multiple terms must use pencil.</p>

<p>Something is not right when students have to consistently fight their way into both introductory and advanced classes. Something is not right when more names are on the waitlist for a class than can actually be enrolled in the class.</p>

<p>Underclassmen, especially freshmen, find themselves being locked out of even large introductory classes. As preached by faculty advisers and others, underclassmen are encouraged to explore new fields of study at the College to spur their intellectual curiosity. The liberal arts education is working when students originally interested in biology become government majors. However, such adventurous students must first be able to gain enrollment to government classes to be able to have their curiosity sparked. Prior to Dartmouth, it is unlikely that many students have had the opportunity to learn about comparative politics or international politics. You have to try it to see if you like it. The enrollment problem is preventing students from trying new things or further pursuing their interests.</p>

<p>Through talking with my peers, I have found that a significant source of the frustration is the uncertainty and lack of information about the future of the department. As underclassmen prepare to declare a major, they want and deserve a frank dialogue about the department and its capacity to handle droves of new majors. Simply put, the classes of today and beyond would like to be reassured. Will the status quo continue? What changes have and will be made to alleviate the enrollment issues?</p>

<p>The College has responsibly been addressing the overall issue of class sizes. Decreasing class size is an absolutely vital goal to strengthen the Dartmouth experience. Yet, students are even being locked out of the 50 to 100-person introductory government classes that allow them to take the smaller, more advanced classes. What is being done to allow more students to take government classes without increasing class size?</p>

<p>The popularity of the government department is in part a testament to the quality of the program. It is, in a way, a “good problem” for the College. As for over 200 years, Dartmouth continues to attract future civic leaders. The question is: can the College keep up? Relative to its Ivy League peers, Dartmouth has one of the highest percentages of government majors. Government is consistently one of the most common majors on campus. Students are frustrated with being locked out of government classes because the department offers interesting and exciting classes that students eagerly want to take. Nonetheless, the enrollment problem is still a problem that needs to be aggressively addressed.</p>

<p>Over the past two centuries, Dartmouth has had a proud tradition of producing some of the most foremost political leaders in the nation. A large portion of Dartmouth’s most famous alumni were individuals of public service, including Senator Daniel Webster, U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Salmon Chase to Vice President Nelson Rockefeller and Secretary of Labor Robert Reich. The study of politics has an important niche at Dartmouth. The College’s New Hampshire setting provides it with the unique opportunity to experience first-hand the American primary system every four years. The excellent resources of the Rockefeller Center offer students everything from internship opportunities to prominent national political speakers and thinkers. </p>

<p>Students are just as responsible as the administration to maintain the quality of education and life at the College. It is the duty of the Dartmouth students to maintain the pressure on the College to properly address the issues of class sizes and enrollment. If the students live up to this task, the classes of today and tomorrow will benefit from an even stronger undergraduate experience here at Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Registration at most courses at Dartmouth are on a first come first served basis and the rank system does not prevail (seniors don’t have seniority in getting classes) so the early bird definitely does catch the worm in this case. In addition, at the time you register, you know how the total # of students to be enrolled, number currently enrolled and spots remaining. Some courses are not given each and every term (which does present a problem and everyone wants to get into the popular courses-which is pretty common at almost any college). Because of the D-plans many students can also be inflexible when it comes to taking alternative courses because they have a specific term they want to be off, or will want to take a specific course in a particular term in order to do a domestic /foreign study abroad.</p>