<p>Instead of a running commentary like Kalidescope, what I’ll say is:
Mini, back off on the hard rhetoric involving LACs vs. Research unis. Don’t you have better to do? You’re not doing anyone any favors…especially in getting students to consider LACs seriously. There is something to be said for stereotypes, some of it is true, but mostly it is a stereotype.</p>
<p>And wouldn’t you be defending Harvard to your heart’s content if your gifted daughter had gone there instead of to Smith? So there!!</p>
<p>Achat, it’s none of my business, but I suppose nobody currently on cc has anything “better to do.” I personally find the topic interesting but I’m 17 and will be going to college next year and am thus not an expert. I struggled with this debate thoughout last summer and like hearing other more knowledgable opinions.
On the other hand, I’m not normally on the parents forum so I may be unaware of any bad feelings between parent-posters.</p>
<p>No bad feelings (at least I hope not) between Mini and myself. It’s just that I find his posts an extremely hard sell on LACs. If you do a search on his posts, he argues the same positions over but I don’t think that gives anyone a clear picture. Mini and I are friends and exchange PM many times…</p>
<p>First of all - I taught at a research university, and thought that students received an EXCELLENT education. As I noted in the subject matter of this forum, I indicated that I thought both Columbia and Dartmouth to be wonderful institutions, where one could get a GREAT education. And many do. I was careful in my original post to indicate the differences between Dartmouth and Columbia (which are very large), without indicating a preference for either (except to say that if the OP wanted to go to Dartmouth, and his parents could afford it, he should go for it! And I would have said the same thing if his parents worked at Dartmouth, and he wanted to go to Columbia.) I made a simple observation that Columbia had more TAs than Dartmouth, but balanced that by the observation that they had more top graduate programs. (Check my original post: I didn’t bring up class size, LACs, people getting shut out of classes, or the quality of TAs at all.)</p>
<p>And elsewhere I have also said wonderful things about Harvard, the top of the list being the amazing assortment and range of often-student-initiated activities that really cannot be found anywhere else. I have also recommended top state universities as a great place for top students to get excellent pre-med educations, with research opportunities, internships, and terrific odds at getting into top medical schools. I also think that the range of offerings at the best private and public research universities are generally speaking much larger than that to be found at LACs, and that if a student already has a well-developed interest in a specific area, in many instances the research university is the way to go. (I also happen to prefer larger LACs for that reason, but that’s another discussion.) And as much as I respect the math departments at Williams and Carleton and Swarthmore, I can’t imagine a truly gifted math student choosing them over Harvard, Princeton, Chicago, or MIT.</p>
<p>But I think folks are really kidding themselves if they think that the education offered by TAs is in any way comparable to that provided by professors. (Yes, there are great TAs and lousy professors - I’ve experienced both.) If that were the case, Harvard (not to single them out) would be advertising the number of TA-led classes, and USNWR would have made a category and rating for the percentage of sections led by TAs. I think it is a simple observation to note that they don’t.</p>
<p>i will echo Marite’s points about problems getting into classes at LACs: my D was a gov major at Wes, and had horrendous problems her senior year getting the necessary classes, owing to some planned leaves, pregnancies, etc. She ws advised to take a classs in a similar subject to one she was already in, but lower level, in order to have enough classes. Rejecting that advice, she talked her way into another class by emailing extensively with the prof, doing assignments even though she wasn’t getting credit for them, participating a lot, and offering to bring a chair with her.</p>
<p>I had one child at an LAC, one at a private research U (Columbia, and he never wears black ), and my H and I went to a big public research U (UMich). We all love and defend to the death our alma maters.</p>
<p>I echo Achat in being tired of the reflexive bashing going on here by type of school.</p>
<p>Achat, at least we haven’t had to hear about why ivies should charge the wealthy even more on this thread. And the words Pell and grant haven’t been mentioned once.</p>
<p>Hey - what’s interesting is the trend about government majors. Are there that many more of them these days, causing crushes at places like Dartmouth and Wesleyan (one a LAC and one not ) which are unexpected? Is there a lack of qualified faculty? Or has the Pres. brought new interest in government service to a whole new generation of students?</p>
<p>“And the words Pell and grant haven’t been mentioned once.”</p>
<p>I hope I did! (;)) (actually, I DID, but neither positively nor negatively.)</p>
<p>To the OP: I hope you do, in fact, end up with this choice. You can’t lose. Go to visit each school that admits you, and then choose the one which feels like the place that not only offers the most opportunities for your interests – but the place that feels so “right” that you will reach out to grab those opportunities and make the very most of them. That’s all I’m sure your parents ask.</p>
<p>Our son had a somewhat similar choice in that he could have gone to Cal, and with a Regents, at half or less of the cost of the school he ultimately chose, or to UCLA for even less with their much more generous Regents. All we asked was that he apply to UCs because these are great schools, and then take his acceptances and offers seriously, including the finances, but that he not make his decision exclusively based on finances. He was fortunate that we could do this for him, and he shows his appreciation by grabbing the opportunities at college and running with them. I’m sure you’ll do the same.</p>
<p>By the way, he chose Columbia. (And Chicago was on his list, Mini – I agree that it and Columbia share much in common.) He owns only one black shirt which he wears when bartending or performing jazz, is considering a frat, is in no way alternative, and loves his experience there – both intellectual and social. On the other hand, he never considered Dartmouth or an LAC because he knew he wanted an urban school. When he did pick Columbia, a major reason was the core curriculum. I’d suggest that when you do an overnight at both colleges and visit classes, you visit a core class at Columbia. To some, the core holds no appeal at all, and in that case, you should not choose Columbia.</p>
<p>Re wearing black, I was not suggesting that everybody at Columbia wears black! Was just pointing out that you do see <em>more</em> students in black on campus, and this does not necessarily signify that they are goth/alternative, just that they are living in NYC.</p>
<p>You see more students at Princeton in orange. Does not mean they have bad taste or celebrate Halloween year-round.</p>
<p>Can you tell I went to college when semiotics was a big deal? ;-)</p>
<p>My S#1 had to take another course in the sciences to graduate; unfortunately, he was shut out of one that he was interested in. Garland has mentioned her D talking her way into a class that was closed; but this cannot be the strategy of choice. The prof would have made an exception for one more student but not for 8. So my S took a class that was more advanced than he wished to take and struggled in it.</p>
<p>The classes at Dartmouth I instanced are not yet being held, and registration is still ongoing, I am told. Since classes are capped at 55, it is likely that the one that already has 35 may grow to 55. As for the class that is already full and has a 20+ person waiting list, I assume that the 20 students will need to find an alternative. I don’t know what the level for the classes are. I understand that neither is a required class.
I personally feel that it does not really matter if I am one of 55 or 110 students. Past a certain number, the small class dynamics can no longer obtain. Sections allow students to pose questions and discuss readings as they would in smaller classes.</p>
<p>I agree Marite, depending on the subject and the type of “small class dynamics” that would best serve the course material, 30 may be too many.
I also believe in seniors having preference, to prevent situations like your son’s. I’m not sure what the problem with government at Dartmouth is, as the article that Sybbie references says, it seems to have been simmering for awhile.</p>
<p>I actually don’t think class size is an issue, per se. I have seen wonderful classes with 200 (which I TA’d), and awful ones with 30. (Below that, the dynamics change - I’ve been in some awful ones, but usually for different reasons.) So I actually agree, very substantially, with Marite on this.</p>
<p>Where I think the differences are large, and in my experience very large, are in the quality of mentoring that is likely to occur. When I was 23, I could run a terrific discussion group (though frankly, even then, I thought I would be better as a lecturer.) Where I would have failed, routinely, is as a mentor to my charges. Part of it was lack of time (after all, I was expected to do other things, and being a TA was just a paycheck.) Part of it was lack of training. Most of it, however, was lack of experience. And having received some excellent mentoring as an undergraduate, I felt that my charges were cheated. Now maybe the mentoring being done by famous profs at Harvard or Yale is different than what I was part of. We hoped that would be the case when my d. went to check them out, and, at least in the area in which she hoped to specialize, was explicitly told otherwise. (To be fair, I know of at least 3 high-powered math students where the opposite was the case.)</p>
<p>Being shut out of a required course at a place with endowments in the multi-millions doesn’t speak well.</p>
<p>Mini:
But even with mentoring, can a prof who has 55 students mentor them (never mind the quality issue)? How much feedback can s/he give to a student’s paper? I assume that your reference to “famous Harvard or Yale profs” is tongue-in-cheek as we know that profs tend to come from the same grad schools and get dispersed among the various tiers. </p>
<p>Being shut out of a course is the downside of wanting to keep classes a manageable size and not having TAs. Of course, your D’s experience with Harvard profs suggests that there may be other reasons as well. But I would hazard that your D’s case is a special one. On the whole, there are probably fewer students at mid-sized research unis who are shut out of classes than at LAcs. </p>
<p>As well, keep in mind that since your days (and mine) there have been efforts to train new TAs. My S has been happy with his: they’ve been knowledgeable, supportive and patient.</p>
<p>ARe you as critical of the large number of students who apply to both Binghamton and Stony Brook? </p>
<p>After all, they play each other in basketball, but one’s near New York City, and one’s in a small town!</p>
<p>How about students who apply to UCLA and the University of Oregon?</p>
<p>Sure there are differences between Columbia and Dartmouth, but they have significant similarities as well. Both are within driving distance of the OP’s home; both would provide a significant academic challenge to a top student; both offer their students excellent courses in a broad range of subjects. There were people who applied to both schools before there was an Ivy League.</p>
<p>Heck, I applied to three Ivy League schools when I was in high school, one that attracted my attention because it was close to home, and two because a high school teacher who I respected urged me to attend. That doesn’t mean I was hung up on the Ivy League, any more than it meant I was hung up on the Pac Ten when I ultimately graduated from Stanford and Cal. </p>
<p>Sure there are people who are obsessed by the Ivy League; you may even be one of them, Mini.</p>
<p>OP: There’s a lot to be said for striking out for new territory when you head to college. As the great but nearly forgotten Walt Kelly said through the character of Pogo, “You can keep your gold and your silver, too, all I want is my ring dang doo.”</p>
<p>I wouldn’t be too quick to discount gold and silver, for that matter; staying out of debt now may give you more options in pursuing your version of “ring dang doo” five or ten years from now.</p>
<p>You’ll make your own decision of course; if you get into both, I wouldn’t fault you for going either way.</p>
), and my H and I went to a big public research U (UMich). We all love and defend to the death our alma maters.</p>
) which are unexpected? Is there a lack of qualified faculty? Or has the Pres. brought new interest in government service to a whole new generation of students?</p>