<p>As we get bits and pieces more of this puzzle, several possibilites could be considered. Perhaps the daughter thinks (right or wrong, but she thinks it) that parents pay more attention to her sibs and their business than to her, so she acts out to get their attention. As they say- negative attention is better than no attention at all in the minds of some people who act out. She has 3 older successful brothers. She had a history of mood and learning issues and doesn’t measure up, so feels like she is rejected or neglected. She acts out in school and bingo-- she gets mom and dad’s attention. And is grows from there…</p>
<p>And of course it isn’t black or white-- thats exactly the point. Losing a client or two is unlikely to tank one’s whole career, even if the word does spread that they have a child with behavior problems. But if a family thinks it is a possibility (and apparently some posters think so) this could continue to give the daughter all the power to act out and continue to control by threats of acting out. Even if M3s business was teaching manners classes or being family therapists, most clients understand that stuff happens, and family members can have meltdowns. If its really such a high likelihood that a client or 2 seeing the daughter have a tantrum at home could ruin the family business, isnt that all the more reason to have the dau live elsewhere?</p>
<p>My point in saying if I had to choose between family and career, I’d choose family-- what I mean is that what is going on can tear this family apart, since the sons are getting more alienated from the sister, and the parents are clearly divided in how to deal with the daughter. If the parents run a business together and are divided in dealing with the daughter, this can cause other ripples. There is a lot that is necessary to get this house in order. I feel badly for m3- but it is taking a very long time for very little change. I hope another crisis doesnt occur, but it is unfortunately a possibility. A crisis can occur with the daughter, the business or within the marriage. A business can be rebuilt. A family, especially an intact family-- maybe not. The car accident should have been a serious wakeup call.</p>
<p>Jym…You have offered some good advice but you are WAY OFF on your assessment of my business taking priority over any family member. First, let me give a reality check my business is what keeps the roof over our head, the bills paid, and the tuition checks written. It is our only source of income so yes it is important to the stability of my family. The beauty of my business is that it was started as a way of contributing to the family income while still allowing me to make my own hours with my family in mind. I do much of my work late into the evenings or when my family was busy at school or whatever else.
Your theory regarding work being part of the problem tells me that you are not really listening to what I am dealing with. I have devoted my whole adult life to my kids and evrything that I have done has been with their best interest in mind and that included my daughter. With three sons who have done well do you really think it is likely or probable that I would have ignored the needs of my daughter. I gave my daughter more of my time because she needed more. I would actually say that all of my kids had more time with me than most other kids have with their mother, even working moms. Somewhere along the way you have stopped listening and started doing cyber therapy to figure out how my daughter acts like this. I can’t say I blame you but trust me this time you are all wrong. I wish I could attribute it to me not setting boundaries or working too much than I could blame myself and understand why my daughter acts the way she does. I have always been a consistent and loving mom and up until the time my daughter went away to school I thought I must have been the luckiest woman to have four great kids. Sorry Jym…you are way off.</p>
<p>…and yes, I agree that my daughter needs to live on her own too. We are not debating this issue. I would have said a year ago that would have been wrong and irresponsible but that is not the case anymore.</p>
<p>You are WAY OFF in understanding what I am saying. You so don’t get what I what I am saying at all. </p>
<p>Yes, I am postulating other theories as to what could feed your daughter’s current aberrent behaviors. You are being very closed-minded. It doesn’t matter what you <em>think</em> you have established with your work and the hours you ran/run it, it matters what your daughter thinks/perceives. You may think that you have run it only when the kids are at school and late into the night, and maybe that was true at one point, but it may not be true now, and more importantly, if your daughter thinks work is a higher priority to you/your husband than she is, thats her perception. Doesnt meant it is accurate, but it could be her perception. THAT is the reality check <em>you</em> arent hearing. It is a theory, trying to understand why your daughter is potentially sabotaging you/your income stream. Or, it could just be part of her selfish destructive behavior. You’ve chosen thus far (unless I missed it) not to share what she did that caused you to bring her home from her LAC in the first place. Perhaps you could share so we have a better idea of what has transpired to get you where you/she are today. In the absence of that, lots of hypotheses may be generated that you think are off the mark. Maybe they are, but maybe, just maybe, they aren’t.</p>
<p>You THINK she understands that you wont pay for tuition next semester. I’ll bet she fully believes you/your husband will pay. She isn’t hearing/listening, and it seems like that may be what is happening with you here as well.</p>
<p>Good-- get angry-- its about darned time!! But get angry at the RIGHT PEOPLE.</p>
<p>Many people (myself included) are self-employed. I am not saying you have to fold up shop. But when your kids were ill you probably modified your schedule and availability to take care of them. This is no different. Open your eyes and your ears. I am not saying this is black or white, but I know lots of very financially successful but terribly unhappy people. Please don’t be part of that group. </p>
<p>I have no clue what kind of business you run as you have been selective in what you choose to share. But if you really think you risk financial ruin (exaggeration for effect) if your daughter makes a scene in front of clients, then for the time being either move the place you meet your clients (lots of cyber offices are being set up and lots of inexpensive executive suites are available as other have told you) or move your daughter. </p>
<p>You have been very selective in addressing/responding to some recommendations that have come up OVER AND OVER. You and your husband NEED to get into therapy NOW. Glad you got mad at me. I obviously hit a nerve. Take that anger and direct it at him. He sounds a serious roadblock in the family getting unstuck. And go back and read teriwtt’s post from several days ago. It wa spot on.</p>
<p>Just think about what you are saying…I should treat my daughter as the adult that she is and encourage her to move out and yet I get the feeling that you believe I owe her my 100% time so that she does not feel that mommy doesn’t love her. This thinking is totally off when kids are adults…I wish I could say that I work to drive great cars, take great vacations and all the other things that income could purchase. Most people including myself work to live, keep a roof over their heads, pay tuition, and save for retirement so our kids do not need to support us in older years. You have given alot of feedback, and no I have not shared some personal aspects of my life for identity reasons.</p>
<p>My business would be down the tubes if my daughter carried on in front of clients…that is reality in most any business. How many people do you know that would drag their personal life to their business or work place?..I don’t know anyone who would. </p>
<p>I have also discussed why we brought my daughter home from her LAC…She was a mess and that has been clearly defined. Should the every ugly detail be told…not necessary. We did what was best at the time and I am sure there would have been some here that might have said leave her at school and let her see a therapist and get on meds. People do what they believe is best given the situation…We believe we did what was best. To this day my daughter still says that we were 100% correct in bringing her home. We had also given her the opportunity to go back with our complete support…she turned that down because she did not want to go back. It is easy to say what I need to do but let me remind you that I don’t have four dysfunctional kids I have one. The one that is dysfunctional is taking a toll on the rest of us. Think of your hand…one hurt finger affects the whole hand…causing general pain that can not be identified. When one child is sick the family is turned upside down.</p>
<p>There have been many things to think about in the course of the two years my daughter has been home. Neither I nor my husband have been neglectful in any sense of the word. We have considered every action with only our daughter in mind…that has been criticized as well. There is no one right thing to do here and we have tried to explore lots of scenerios and here we are realizing that the only thing left to do is to help her move out (husband not on board yet). Keep in mind that if we don’t have income my husband and I will live on the street…If you think I use words to make an exagerated point than the real world of our economic situation has not hit you. I am angry at your one remark and I am voicing an opinion because that was one of the silliest things I have heard someone say. You have said many very helpful and insightful posts but I draw the line at being told to not work or to put work on the back burner…you obviously do not have insight to my personality to make such a statement. I have done that and yet I have not even mentioned it. I do what needs to be done…but to give up my business is just unrealistic. We am not sitting on a small bundle to get us through. I am sorry but when I don’t know something I admit to that and ask for suggestions but when something is so obviously incorrect I can’t keep quiet about it.</p>
<p>momma-three: stay strong. Lots of us behind you. YOU are not the problem, nor is your parenting. Please try to take care of your health, get out for some long walks. Worried about you!</p>
<p>m-3, did you get a chance to show hubby the input you have received here? Did it help at all to validate your position? What are the reasons he is giving to not have D move out? If he doesn’t want D to move out, does he have another action he suggests? (he can’t be happy with the status quo, right??) Did you explain that moving to a dorm or apartment was to benefit your D and not a punishment? How does he foresee her maturing and becoming a young adult if she lives at home and is set to graduate in a year? Did you mention that two therapists also recommend this step for your D? I’m curious, if you are willing, to hear your husband’s reasons for not having D live on her own and what else he suggests to mitigate the problems you are having. It might help to share this and so you get support for your responses or actions you can take on your own. Also, you could tell husband you’d like to meet with him and a counselor to deal with this problem with your D. The problems with your D have the potential to draw a wedge between you and your husband, I’m afraid.</p>
<p>Yes soozie… I have. He agrees that our daughter needs to be on her own but he is very concerned about her mental health especially if stress regarding school, jobs, transportation, and the other many responsibiltites that she has. Yes, I did say responsibilties because on the outside looking in she is very responsible…she attends school, gets good grades, works two part time jobs, will baby sit whenever someone calls her to add extra money, and has a social life. From the outside she is a gem…from the inside she is a foul mouthed nasty person. She functions so well because we have helped her to organize, set up schedules, bring balance to her life, and probably taught her enough about how to function in the world regarding money and jobs and dealing with bosses. She makes a beautiful impression and is absolutely stunning in her physical appearance. She has a sense of style and can put a great look together. These are just a few of her attributes…however the sad reality is that she has needed so much help to get to this point since she went away to school. When she came home that May I already knew things were changed. Our daughter was no longer the together kid who was just a pain in the butt sometimes. Something happened during that year that sent her over…I don’t know that but I know it. She was depressed and seemed to be suicidal. We went into high gear and put every safety net into place and devoted ourselves 100% to making her well. During the good periods she was grateful and kind but there was always that something that was not right. Her outbursts were growing and her sence of entitlement was growing. The more we tried to talk to her the more she shut us out. I tried to talk more …I was shut out the most. Yet, when she wants advice or help I am the person she runs to. She loves me and she hates me. My daughter won’t go to a clothes store without me because she “loves my taste” and “nobody know what looks good on me but you”…There have been moments of great bonding and than the top blows off and out of nowhere we don’t know what has hit us. I am saying this because that is what scares my husband. He says that a normal person does not act like this and so he is very afraid to see her go. He is also afraid to see her stay in the respect that she will never want to leave or leave at a time when she is doing so to make a point rather than moving out to be on her own and grow. It is complicated but I can’t force my husbands hand because that would just be wrong…I don’t like that I am being forced right now by his inaction and her desire to drive me nuts but if we all acted that way we would really ruin each other and the whole family. I believe and trust that time can help people to come around and right now all I can do is change some of the things I am doing. I am not doing head stands to accommadate my daughters every wish and there are consequences being set up to deal with the crappy behavior. My daughter is not going to ruin our down time and monopolize our every waking moment and she is not getting a car or I will remove the parts. I know that sounds crazy but so be it.
I believe my husband is slow to move but thinks carefully. I respect that and believe he will come to understand that this is all too much. The near future should hold some of the answers in regard to how he will proceed in regard to this.</p>
<p>I dont know who you are speaking to in post 806, but it sounds like you are backing of your affirmative stance. I said nothing about treating her like an adult (though I absolutely agree) and I think you owe her ZERO percent of your time, not 100% of your time. But your DAUGHTER may think otherwiswe, and until you understand that you may remain stuck where you are. And no I don’t agree that your business or any business would ne “down the tubes” if a scene occurred in front of ONE client. That is unrealistic. But if you truly believe that, and will not or cannot risk that m and you will not show your dau the door and change the locks, the temporarily MOVE YOUR OFFICE. Take just what you need and sublet from a friend or something. Look on craigslist. In this economy it probably is not hard. </p>
<p>I have no clue why you brought your daughter home. I have not followed all your threads or all your posts and I have no idea what “a mess” means. It could mean anything from depression and an eating disorder to drug distribution to lapdancing or a pregnancy. Who knows. And before you jump all over me, I am not saying she did any of those things. I have no clue. But if you think you have been clear about it in this thread, I think several of us might disagree. Perhaps you can repost or lead us to the post where you clearly described the reasons you brought her home. That would be appreciated.</p>
<p>This
is the only thinkg in your last post that makes sense. You are absolutely right. But she is controlling and wrecking the family and it is being allowed to continue. The other boys are escaping to other jobs and school. Lucky for them.</p>
<p>I have no idea what pushed your button and got you so hot under the collar, but GOOD!!! Stay angry and DO SOMETHING. I dont think you should “encourage her” to move out-- I think you should put her out. Big difference.</p>
<p>Again-- I have no clue what ou are all steamed up about- I have no idea what yo do and picked two ideas off the top of my head wheyre an out of control aduld child would look badly upon a certain kind of career. I am well aware of the economic climate and I have felt/lived the effects first hand. That said, if you really think that one client seeing your daughter act like a jerk is going to tank your entire business, well, sorry but that sounds a bit hystrionic.</p>
<p>So good-- stay mad-- but use it to get action oriented. </p>
<p>I am off to a nice afternoon with friends and family-- hope you make an action plan, pick one item on the list and do it. ANd please reread teriwtts post. Again. and again.</p>
<p>I hope your DH is listening, reading, getting on the same page. If not, please consider moving your office, even temporarily. Is there a family member with an office where you could meet clients for a while? A close friend? Not move the whole business, but move the client meetings for a while. Let your DH see how serious you are about change, without loosing the business and income for your family. </p>
<p>I hope today is the day when things start improving.</p>
<p>m-3, late to this thread and havent read every post but…our youngest causes alot of chaos in our house (vs 2 older sons that honestly were never a problem)… this one makes really bad decisions, can not control impulses, does not respect our rules etc etc. while i feel he needs more discipline, my H tends to give in in order to avoid conflict… so while the specifics are different, there are similarities</p>
<p>it has taken me a long time to be able to understand what the psychologist has said to me… it really doesnt matter what i think, or that i cant understand son’s reasoning… his perceptions of a situation/argument/rule etc are different from mine… That doesnt make them accurate, but i will go round and round forever, if i dont acknowledge that one point…Until i accept that his view of things is different, i wont change anything…the arguments and tantrums, acting out etc will continue. I think jym626 is saying the same… You know that you have worked hard for your family, have sacrificed, have given your time, have loved and cared for her BUT she doesnt think you have! she sees things from a different point of view…a selfish, narcissistic one perhaps, but you wont change her mind. You can tell her those things until you are blue in the face</p>
<p>i dont have any answers and struggle with these same behavior but my stress level is somewhat decreased by not feeding his views by arguing, and trying to convince him i am right… The psyhcologist talks about listening not reacting… ie " obviously you are angry, i understand that you are angry can you tell me why." Rather than my usual response of something like… “you have no right to do that, you shouldnt do that,etc”
I’m not good at it yet, but have noticed it diffuses him a bit…i however do have holes in my tongue now from biting it so hard!</p>
<p>the psychologist also stressed the importance of parent unity… if there is a punishment or consequence… whoever doles it out is the only one that can change it…ie if i say you are grounded for a week, and my H came to me (privately never in front of him) and said that was harsh, and IF i agree and decide to change it to just 3 days… I am the only one that can change it…H can not change a punishment i establish and vice versa. If you can both agree (and believe me i know how hard that will be for you)… then try that also,</p>
<p>I think that the focus on the D having a tantrum in front of a client has caused everyone to not see the forest for the trees. It is only one manifestation of a bigger problem. Moving her office will not solve the bigger problem.</p>
<p>M3, I’m glad that you are setting up consequences for your D and her behavior. I think this is the best approach as she is a moving target. Throw in some positive reinforcement when things are good. Although, she is a smart one so keep it low key. She will sniff out desperation in a heartbeat. Good luck and stay strong!</p>
<p>Your husband sounds afraid that he thinks your D may not do well if on her own. Perhaps you can work this through in some fashion. For example, she will be living nearby and not far away. He can see her and check in on her regularly and she can come home for a dinner each week or whatever, but it is a transition to becoming a young adult that she deals with day to day life. She seems capable in the sense that she does hold jobs and she does get decent grades. Living on her own will lessen daily conflict as well. A compromise could be that you pay tuition, room and board. D’s “new” part will be living in an apartment, but not all of a sudden having to also finance it all. That would be a struggle. Baby steps. If she succeeds in school, you help her finish the final year. Then, she knows she will have to support herself after that. </p>
<p>I would encourage you to ask your husband what else he suggests as doing nothing new is not going to work. And what is the harm in her living in a dorm or apartment? If she goes downhill, bring her home. You already have said she made a lot of progress in the two years she has been home from her LAC. It’s time she moves forward. And the big issue really seems to be dynamics between the D and the parents and the apartment should help to mitigate that. </p>
<p>Can you reach a compromise solution? Can you ask him to meet with you with the counselor? Does he have any actions he is willing to take? If he absolutely won’t along with this plan or come up on a compromise or a plan of his own, then, you need to seek support for what changes you can do on your own. But I’d like to think that your husband can at least agree that the current situation is untenable and changes are needed for your D’s sake and your own sake. And hopefully he respects you enough to understand you can’t keep doing the status quo. </p>
<p>I don’t know your D, but part of me wonders why she even wants to live at home as it is a source of great conflict. I would think she’d want to be on her own.</p>
<p>Agree with EPTR that in the meantime, even as she is still in your home, if you can set up expectations/limits and consequences and spell these out in writing and meet with her to go over them and hand them to her and then enforce them, that also is a new change that will help. I hope hubby is at least on board with that part. He can’t be happy with the status quo either, right?</p>
<p>Yes…The holes in my tongue are getting bigger as well. I need to keep working on that as well. I know my daughter may perceive things a certain way just as each of my other kids may perceive things their own way. I do listen and try to hear what she is saying but it works two ways. I have a long way to go hopefully some distance in our living situation will bring some stability.</p>
<p>Soozie…That is what I hope to accomplish today. My husband and I plan on discussing all of this with her.</p>
<p>^^^
And the reality is that they may never change their views. Or not until a great deal of life experience and maturation helps them to reflect on their upbringing and their own behavior. BUT, they still have to find a way to coexist with the other humans on the planet :)</p>
<p>I’m rooting for you M3. Sending positive energy and superhuman patience your way today.</p>
<p>As a working mother, I support you M3 in not sacrificing your business to cater to the whims of your adult child. Part of caring for our children is not only providing for them when they are younger, but providing for ourselves so that we don’t overly burden our children. Good luck with your discussions today.</p>