<p>soozie…you give consistently good counsel. On her own, safely, is good parenting. Dumped out on her own…probably not. Without a car…DEFINITELY.</p>
<p>^^^Well, I have disagreed with m-3 on this one point. I would make the goal that D gains maturity and independence and appropriate behavior and moves into a place of her own or a dorm room. I would not ALSO stop tuition/room/board at this same time. I feel that is a set up for failure. I would stop that if she were failing and not earning credits, etc. but that is not the case here. I’d want her to finish school and move onto being on her own financially after that. I also think that my view would be more amenable to the dad because I can see he doesn’t want her out there on her own and struggling to make ends meet to pay for all of this herself. But if the ONE change they make is that she not live at home (and of course, set limits/consequences for behavior), that would be enough. Financially supporting herself can come on graduation day. The parents paid for her LAC and have paid for tuition/room/board while at home as well. To pull the plug on that at the same time as trying to help D to grow up and become independent is a recipe for failure in my view. As I wrote, I would think D would WANT to move out and lessen the parental grip and conflict and maybe one reason she doesn’t want to is that with moving out, they may also make her pay for everything herself. If I were the parents, I’d want my D to live on her own for her own good and for the troubling dynamics at home. I would not remove tuittion/room/board at the same time.</p>
<p>The other issue is that her accident, according to mom, was due to texting while driving. If she lived in a dorm, and walked to classes and had a job either on campus or near campus or via public transportation from campus, this would also solve the transportation issue at this time.</p>
<p>Maintaining the status quo of daily conflicts and also the transportation stuff and D living in “high school mode” essentially, is not moving forward and is not much of a change in the status quo. I don’t know what Dad is avoiding in this situation because the status quo is not working either.</p>
<p>Also: if D can’t handle own apartment, a dorm room would be appropriate at this juncture in her life. It’s a good half way point between living at home and having an apartment. Also, her school is near where they live.</p>
<p>M3 - Will she be able to get to her school and her jobs without a car? Does she have the money to purchase her own car? Are there dorms at her college? </p>
<p>I hope you have a smooth, peaceful day today. I think of you every day, for sure.</p>
<p>^ eddieodessa…It will be a problem when she is doing her onsight experience and also to and from school to jobs. The route in the morning is not convenient at all but it is doable. It is also costly to travel by public transportation vs her gas money. I am not sure how it will work out starting this week with her schedule in full force. The inconvenience may be just the catalyst she needs to see the benefits to moving close to campus and getting jobs close by to her school. I have offered her rides to the second transfer when I was heading that way. She has off one day a week and that day she works two jobs that are two towns away from each other.</p>
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<p>I don’t think the daughter’s perceptions/expectations is relevant in terms of action. It is completely possible that her perceptions are off-base and there are a number of mental disorders that affect how people perceive the actions of others or that affect their expectations of others. Trying to meet her rather erratic and unrealistic expectations (e.g. replacing the car, etc.) would not be good parenting. I think M3 is getting unstuck by realizing that her stand needs to be consistent regardless of D’s expectations/perceptions. Part of being a healthy adult is knowing how to tolerate the normal disappointment that comes when our loved ones let us down and can’t/don’t meet every expectation. I think it’s important to remember that M3 is in therapy. I assume if the job was the issue, the therapist would be pointing that out. If D has a problem with Mom working, then the issue is with D. Plenty of moms work and this is a woman with no minor children at home. Why shouldn’t she work? If D resents the business, then that is D’s problem, not M-3’s.</p>
<p>M3–Does your husband fear unthinkable consequences to her moving out–i.e. a suicide attempt? Is that the fear that is holding him back? There have been phrases thrown around akin to “she won’t do well on her own.” What does your husband mean by this? Can you be specific?</p>
<p>^^That is a good question for m-3 to ascertain from her husband as to what the fears are and maybe these can be addressed. It is hard to understand just what she means by not doing well. </p>
<p>I surely hope it is not fear of suicide (haven’t read indicators of that in the posts) but even with that, living at home is not a deterrent to someone intent on suicide. My daughter had an older friend and teammate (captain in fact) in college who had depression, as well as some eating issues and she took a leave from school and was living and working at home. She committed suicide at her parents’ home.</p>
<p>Parent56’s post #813 is spot on. That is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you, parent56 for wording it so well. The daughter has her own unrealistic perception of what is going on, and it sounds like she believes the world revolves around her. The line m-3 said earlier about their having good mom-daughter bonding time when they went shopping because daughter thinks m3 has the best taste in what looks good on her<a href=“and%20also%20likely%20has%20the%20chargecard%20to%20pay%20for%20daughters%20clothes%20:”>/u</a> ) reinforces the self-focused behavior of the daughter. The daughter has yet to own the fact that she has to change, She has no incentive, no motivation and no timeline placed upon her. So why should she change? </p>
<p>I have been trying to say all along that m-3 needs to take care of herself. If there was a <em>true family emergency/crisis,</em> then family trumps work. I do not think that an out of control daughter has the right to disrupt m3s work. That said, I really don’t believe that m3’s work will go down in flames and go out of business because the dau may make a scene in front of a client. Sorry. Just dont buy that. That fear, whether it is m3’s or her husbands, paralyzes them and leaves all the control squarely in the daughter’s hands. This is backwards.</p>
<p>M3 has said she is in therapy. Don’t know how often the appointments are. Perhaps it is time to go more frequently, and if we posters havent said it enough, get thee to a marriage counselor ASAP. I repeat-- I do not know why you brought your daughter home 2 years ago, and I do not know what your definition of “a mess” is. If there is a post you wrote somewhere that clearly describes what the issues were, please post a link to it. I truly hope you and your husband will come up with a plan. Thought that was supposed to happen after the new years outburst. It sounds like you are now backing off having her move out, and are now willing to participate in some of the transportation, even if it is to/from bus stops. She will not like being inconvenienced and will sabotage anything that is not to her liking. Please, get STRICT and hide all the keys to your sons’ cars (and your cars) . Otherwise, there is a good chance , if she does get herself up for class, she’ll help herself to a car if daddy doesnt drive her. How has she been getting to school/work these weeks? Have dad and brothers been playing chauffeur? Sweet deal for your daughter.</p>
<p>Go back and read Parent56’s post again. It is brilliant.</p>
<p>I agree with Vitrac. What is your husband so afraid of? Is the key in this statement?</p>
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<p>Are you sure she succeeds because of the extra help that you provided? It’s possible that even without the extra help she would have been successful in managing her responsibilities. It sounds like she has been consistently successful in holding down a job and at times has been successful in managing her coursework. If shw was on her own and some things didn’t go as smoothly because she didn’t have your help, so what? In the grand scheme of things she would still managing and if she isn’t living at home you won’t even have to be aware of anything that isn’t running quite smoothly.</p>
<p>At any rate, it’s time to find out if this time when she is on her own she can make it work. Nothing is set in stone, if she falls apart then you can bring her back home again.</p>
<p>I would also like to weigh in as a poster who sees soozievt’s posts as consistently terrific. They are well thought out, moderate in tone, on topic and offer really good advice.</p>
<p>I don’t think the mom’s work piece is that big of an issue and is just a tangent of the many ways the D’s behavior affects the daily life in the home. I don’t think the business will be in trouble due to D’s behavior. </p>
<p>However, if D acts out when clients are visiting the home, significant consequences should be in place…grounded, no rides, etc. She just can’t get away with it when she is 20 and your home is a place of business at that time of day. I don’t know if you truly use consequences with her. It sounds like not much at all. But if these don’t work, then her being out of the home is necessary as your home, family, and business cannot function with her causing such problems.</p>
<p>Pea, cross posted. </p>
<p>Before I got to the end of your post, I really agreed with what you wrote. I see no big risk to having D live in a dorm or apartment. Worst case, she needs to come back home. But she does seem to function OK in many facets of her life and the parents would not be privy to lots of little things that irritate and the opportunity for daily conflicts with parents would be eliminated. </p>
<p>Thank you for your kind feedback but I don’t think I am offering anything more than the many caring CCers on this thread. I also am not a professional in this field and some here are. Also, I know it is a LOT easier to suggest stuff to someone else than to handle such situations when in the middle of them myself. Much easier! </p>
<p>I feel for m-3 on the one hand as her D is very challenging. I do think that the parents need to set up a different situation for the D now. And in a few areas, I don’t agree with the parents such as caring how much she studies or learns. She is not the kind of student the brothers are and at some point, that has to be accepted. The goal is to get her into adulthood and independent and to mature and learn more appropriate behaviors. It sounds like her behaviors are in check, however, at school and at work and so some of this is rebelling against parents and disrespect and entitlement, etc. and the dynamics are not good in that relationship and by being apart in daily life, there is a chance that it won’t arise as frequently. As I said before, my girls are not like this but even some frustrating times with D2 were very very infrequent once she lived on her own as an adult in college. We no longer supervise her and her decisions are her own and she is also more mature and doesn’t talk back and such like she sometimes did as a teen in HS (not like m-3’s D but there were conflicts sometimes).</p>
<p>I also like what another member wrote…
If hubby is not on board with m-3, then maybe one thing they can agree on is if m-3 takes an action (such as grounds D for disrespectful behavior), that H will not undo it. It may be a unilateral action on the mom’s part and not a unified front but the H should at least agree to not work against any actions the mom takes or to align with the D. And if m-3 can’t get husband to at least agree to not go against actions she takes with D, then have H come to appointment with counselor who can give objective input as to how they have to work in unison or not contradict the other parent. It may take an objective third party to intervene. Don’t know if husband is willing to go with m-3 to a counselor for some help on handling D. I would think he might be motivated to do so as he can’t be happy with all this conflict.</p>
<p>M3 said this:
"Something happened during that year that sent her over…I don’t know that but I know it. She was depressed and seemed to be suicidal. "</p>
<p>That is why I raised the suicide question.</p>
<p>This is one of the things that I was alluding to when I posted about the difficulty in setting boundaries for anyone who has suffered from emotional problems, depression, etc. I imagine that this possibility hangs there like the elephant in the room and nobody wants to set a wheel in motion that may end with a breakdown or worse. As parents we want to “do no harm” but that can leave us paralyzed in our attempts to correct behaviors.</p>
<p>It is easy for anyone giving advice to encourage limit setting, etc. but nobody really can walk in M3’s shoes or those of her husband.</p>
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<p>I have a brother who has recovered from mental illness and lives according to self-written personal management plans, including his medications of course, that altogether let him cope successfully. His is a lifelong struggle with BiPolar Disorder, Depression and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. He is now more than 60 years old, and doing pretty well, I’m glad to say. He also works as a peer mental health advocate and helps plenty of others in similar circumstances. In younger years, his illnesses and behaviors unbalanced our family similarly.</p>
<p>He has taught me to ask others in similar straits, not “how do you feel” or “why are you acting this way” but instead: “WHAT HAPPENED?” If you really feel in your deepest maternal heart that “something” awful happened to her while at school, can you ask her now plainly; what happened? Maybe she’s ready to tell you. Maybe it’s keeping her from wanting to return. Maybe she’s angry at you because you haven’t ever asked her, or not asked her recently enough. Instead a lot of decisions have been based on your hunch that “something happened.” Well, if it did you can’t get anywhere (STUCK!) until you know what, if anything, happened to your daughter to change her so much in one year.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, I hope you and your H are finding ways to make the gap between yourselves smaller so both can speak as one, soon. Best to you.</p>
<p>I know that M3"s D often skips her therapy appts. But I’m still guessing that distance to therapy (without a car) could be one of husband’s concerns. It can be hard to parent when there have been big problems in the past, and you don’t think they were properly resolved. </p>
<p>A compromise could be D lives near college. No car. No job (unless walking distance). And parents take turns finding a way to get D from college to therapy and back. Or D starts with a new therapist (sometimes a hard thing) near campus. </p>
<p>Yes, I know there are flaws in this idea. But there probably is no ideal solution here.</p>
<p>Recently, many here, in an attempt to understand, have asked momma-three what happened in D’s freshman year at her LAC that they brought her home and she has said she was a “mess.” I hope m-3 does not mind, but in an attempt to obtain a broader picture, I have gone back in the CC archives to read some threads m-3 started in the past regarding dilemmas with her daughter. </p>
<p>Here is what I read about…paraphrasing as best as I can…</p>
<p>Mom wrote about D being ungrateful and that she took her generous parents for granted, such as not making the most of her opportunity at her private university. D’s GPA in her freshman year was not as the parents desired or expected. However, she was not on academic probation and the school questioned why the parents were pulling her out. The D had a 3.7 in her major! Her overall GPA for her first year of college was 2.86. What brought it down was D struggling with some required core classes. For instance, she had to take theology as it was a Jesuit school and she doesn’t do well in that kind of course. She struggled with the required core but did very well in her major. The D REALLY wants a college degree but she is not someone who loves learning and the mom has some difficulty with grappling with that fact. She had average grades and SATs in HS.</p>
<p>D appeared to lack self confidence and had low self esteem or low feeling of self worth, mom admitted. It is hard for her to live up to her three older brothers who have been high achievers their entire lives (Ivy League/MIT…well behaved responsible types, etc.) She is well aware that the parents think highly of their sons and she doesn’t feel she measures up. She seems insecure in relation to that issue. This is the girl’s perception (not saying parents’ fault). Mom admits at one point that she might have lost perspective as to what is normal for a college student after having 3 very high achieving sons (in my view, her D is more normal than they are in the general population of college students).</p>
<p>During freshmen year, D had excessive number of text messages per day. </p>
<p>Mom was upset that D partied Thursday through Saturday nights and slept most of Sunday (like so many college students do who are not super hard workers). Mom admits D was not much of a drinker but went out for social reasons and to “shirk responsibilities” (though it sounds like she just really got into the freedom of college social scene). D is not a problem drinker or druggie but mom dissatisfied with her social life being a priority.</p>
<p>D lost a lot of friends in her first year at school apparently due to hurting them and not making amends according to mom. </p>
<p>D broke up mid year with her HS boyfriend who was a soph at another college. At the time, mom was very upset about this as she (the mom) adored this boy who she thought could be a future son-in-law one day. D apparently broke up as she felt too “married.” Ironically D is back with this BF now and mom doesn’t like him much at all and he is not allowed in their house. </p>
<p>Mom mentions that D’s behaviors went against the parents’ values. </p>
<p>The parents pulled D out of her small university after the first year. The D was VERY upset about this as she loved going to her college. She really hoped to be allowed to return after one semester at home going to CC and earning some credits but was not permitted to go back. (so D had a lot of anger toward parents over this)</p>
<p>That summer at home, mom got fed up with D’s behavior and told her she had to stay with her grandparent who lives one mile away but I don’t think that ever transpired. Mom was also upset when she got wind through someone else that her D was seen smoking cigarettes (against their values).</p>
<p>When the D was brought home, she was seen by therapists and a psychiatrist and was put on meds for anxiety and depression which at one point the parents thought was helping her. However, there has been upset that D has not grown up and been “responsible” in ways that they had hoped to see. </p>
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<p>I’m just a mom, and not a professional. I observe a few things…</p>
<p>Seems to me that the D is not all that “bad.” She is very challenging to her parents and seems to crave attention and gets it by acting poorly. She has self esteem issues and feels like the black sheep and that she can’t measure up to the older sons. Her relationship with her parents is conflict ridden and she should continue therapy but also live on her own so as to have to deal with life more independently and not like a child any longer. </p>
<p>Her academics should be accepted by the parents as long as she earns the degree. She will likely never be the kind of learner they expect but she does OK with her grades. She is in some type of professional major and may obtain a career in it. She wants to be in school. The expectations for her grades and study habits, I feel, are too high for who she is. I believe in high expectations but I feel the ones for this child are not appropriate and should be at a different level than the sons. I would be FAR less concerned with her schoolwork than the parents are. I would work much more on her growing up to be an independent adult and to have a better and more respectful relationship with the parents. Also, she likely harbors some anger at being pulled from her college and not being allowed to return by the parents (not the school). She has gone to a local college but is living under close supervision like a high school kid. </p>
<p>Dad is sort of coddling the D rather than helping her to go to the next level of adulthood. She needs some distance from parents. She will be more responsible when forced to be. She holds a job, maintains decent grades and has a boyfriend and social life. It could be far worse. I know she is not like the sons but she isn’t so out of normal range. She is immature and she does have some issues and so should continue with therapy. </p>
<p>The behavior toward the parents such as tantrums and freshness should have limits and consequences. But if she lived outside the home, there would be less daily conflict. </p>
<p>I also think her self esteem needs boosting. She hears what is wrong with her constantly and knows she is not like the sons and feels she has disappointed her parents. I know she is a handful (not easy!) but she also is insecure and acts out for attention. </p>
<p>Rather than enabling poor behavior, perhaps encourage positive behaviors like making her way in her college and living on her own and obtaining her degree that she wants to get. How much she studies, etc. is really not so important in the scheme of things with this kid. Too much attention has been placed on that, in my view. Let her live her life at college and not have so much parental oversight. She is not harming herself and not engaging in the worst behaviors. She is not an angel but she is not a bad kid.</p>
<p>Thank you soozie. You have put this epic in perspective.</p>